Powder Dispensers, Are They Safe For BP?

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Foto Joe

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Since being afflicted by this near fatal disease that brings us all together on this forum, I have been consumed with the need to gather information on the malady which will someday eradicate the interior of my wallet if not stopped.

To this end, I have seen and/or heard from various sources (NOT including THR) that the use of "Powder Dispensers" like the one pictured below:

LoadingBench.jpg

Could cause an explosion and/or fire due to sparks generated by the dispenser, possibly by static electricity.

Being a skeptic and only falling for internet hoaxes once or twice per year I'm not quite buying into this myth/fact yet, but on the other hand I'd rather not wind up looking like Wile E. Coyote on a bad day either.

One would think (possibly incorrectly) that if a powder dispenser is built with a safety margin for smokeless that it should also be reasonably safe for black. If not you would think that the attorneys for Lee, RCBS etc. would be howling from the highest window to put warnings in 97 different languages all over the product and its packaging right???

The question is: Am I courting certain destruction if I continue to use this powder dispenser or is this just the opinion of another wanna-be "Expert" tryin to impress everybody on the www.
 
Because BP is largely carbon and carbon is an excellent conductor of electricity, static electricity of a charge likely to build up in a plastic powder measure is very unlikely to set off your BP. The static charge will pass over the BP grains harmlessly.
Not knowing the mechanics of your measure, it is possible that there may be pinch points that could generate enough shock or pressure to cause BP ignition. I don't think this is likely but should be more of a concern than static charge/discharge.
Take this as the free opinion of a www ordnance expert.:D
Doug
 
Here is my setup. It is approved to use on NMLRA national range. I have been
using it there for over 15 years now. NO danger.

0005_filtered.jpg
 
Powder dispensers are marked if they are safe with BP or not. Most are not, but look on the manufacturers website. Powder dispensers that are BP safe usually have a brass center part, not steel. Remember, it only takes one time to blow your face off, and I believe it would be cheaper to buy another dispenser than another face.
 
Because BP is largely carbon
Click to expand...

Actually it's only about 15% carbon...it's greatest makeup is KNO3...potassium nitrate...approx. 75% .
The biggest concern with using a standard dispenser is the steel rotor shearing against the steel frame and it's potential to spark.
BP fuse has been known to ignite from the shearing action of being cut with steel scissors, which is why, in pyrotechnics, they use scissors of non-ferrous metal or a single edge razor-type blade.
 
I got one of the old Cast Iron, Bronze Rotor 'IDEAL' ones, so I would not have to worry...

Looks good, easy and fun to use, too.
 
Well, as my mother used to say to me, "Why don't you just read the directions!!" Well lo & behold, the instruction manual for the Lee Perfect Powder Measure (once I found it), states that it is safe for all powders.

Construction is nylon and aluminum and uses a wiper instead of a shear for the powder drop.

I would assume that no corporate attorney in his right mind would allow a client to put "Safe for All Types of Powders" in the instructions if it weren't safe for every thing from Red Dot to Talcum Powder. That is of course, unless nobody has managed to blow themselves up......yet.
 
The amount of static electricity generated by a measure, clothing, etc. is too small to be of any danger when exposed to black powder.
 
Blackpowder is actually much safer than smokeless power.
BP has a higher ignition temperature, and is less sensitive to
shock. The people that make these powders have also done
a very good job of reducing the sensitivity to static electricity
as you can see in the earlier post.

The fact that smokeless is classified as a propellent while BP is
an "explosive" is the result of good marketing by the people that
make smokeless power. Actually the reverse is true. BP cannot
truely "detonate" while smokeless which contains nitrocellulose and
nitroglycerine can quite easily detonate (although a blasting cap
is needed).



A good way to convince yourself of the safety of these powders
(either BP or smokeless) is to do some experiments. Take a pinch
of the powder and try and light it with a match, or place it on
an steel plate and beat or rub it with a hammer.
 
I wonder where the myth started? IF there has been an accident while using a powderscale....could that be due to friction rather than static el? Not likely, but more likely?? Iv done a few tests my self using different electrical stuff to make a spark. No danger.... I would very much like to use an electric powder measure for BP loads. I like the one Pact make.
 
The only example of a detonation(or rapid burn, your choice) of black powder came from a shooter using a factory metal can to pour powder at a range. When he finished his pour he put the excess back in the can and screwed the lid on. In the process of screwing the lid on the can blew. Theory was that some granular power stuck to the metal threads and the grinding motion set it off.
Again I don't write them I just report them.
Another theory is that there is a remarkable relationship between all blackpowder accidents and tobacco.

I use a Lee Auto Disc for all my 44-40 black powder loading.

I use the plastic bottles that come on the MEC loaders for my shotgun.
 
In trying to learn more about the impact sensitivity of black powder, I found that there are various testing methods used to determine it. Black powders are not all the same based on their having a different formula and grain size. For instance whether the black powder is made with saltpeter or with sodium nitrate.

The testing methods include ELECTROSTATIC DISCHARGE (ESD) TESTS, FRICTION TESTS and IMPACT TESTS such as the modified Bureau of Mines test that's used to determine it's DOT classification.

From these results a Probit Analysis is done which places the item on a risk curve.
What is most interesting about these tests is that in order to determine the precise results, the material undergoing testing needs to be examined using such means as infrared analysis.

In reading further, it's clear that there are different burn rates and risks associated with different granulations and forms of black powder to where extremely fine unpressed powder [dust] can be more hazardous than another form that's not.
The point is that the actual impact sensitivity and other risks involved with working with black powder are not easy for the layperson to quantify and generalize about. I don't think that we know all of the possibilities about what exactly can set it off, when and how. That's because we're limited to what we can see with the naked eye verses scientists who have sensitive testing equipment for advanced analysis.
For instance, we know that:

To reduce the likelihood of accidental ignition by static electricity, the granules of modern black powder are typically coated with graphite, which prevents the build-up of electrostatic charge.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Click to expand...

Does that mean that it's possible that an electrostatic discharge can possibly ignite uncoated black powder.
Yes, maybe?

Does it mean that extremely high impact can possibly set it off?
Yes, maybe?

Does it mean that friction can possibly set it off?
Yes, maybe?

I don't know specific answers but it's interesting to think about why it's considered to be more hazardous to transport in it's loose form than manufactured fireworks is for example, and how very specific test results helped to determine its risk level.

Transportation

The UN Model Regulations on the Transportation of Dangerous Goods and national transportation authorities, such as United States Department of Transportation, have classified Gunpowder (black powder) as a Group A: Primary explosive substance for shipment because it ignites so easily. Complete manufactured devices containing black powder are usually classified as Group D: Secondary detonating substance, or black powder, or article containing secondary detonating substance, such as firework, class D model rocket engine, etc., for shipment because they are harder to ignite than loose powder. As explosives, they all fall into the category of Class 1.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gunpowder
Click to expand...

For further reading:

http://www.sms-ink.com/services_char_sens.html

http://www.docstoc.com/docs/39210523/FX_Black_Powder

http://www.sceinc.com/specialtest.cfm
 
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Does that mean that it's possible that an electrostatic discharge can possibly ignite uncoated black powder.
Yes, maybe?

Does it mean that extremely high impact can possibly set it off?
Yes, maybe?

Does it mean that friction can possibly set it off?
Yes, maybe?
Click to expand...

Does this mean the sky is falling?
Yes, maybe?
 
junkman_01 said:
Does this mean the sky is falling?
Yes, maybe?
Click to expand...

Believe it or not yes, maybe somewhere in Japan the sky is falling right now. ;)

Saturday, January 29, 2011
Japan Volcano 2011 Videos Kirishima Mountain,Kagoshima Eruption

Train and flight services were suspended on Friday after a volcano in southwest Japan saw its first major eruption for 52 years, spewing columns of smoke and ash thousands of metres into the sky.
Officials said 31 people in Takaharu town near the volcano were forced to spend the night at an evacuation centre on Thursday.

The 1,421-metre (4,689-foot) volcano in the Kirishima range between Kagoshima and Miyazaki has been belching smoke and ash into the air since late Wednesday, according to the Japan Meteorological Agency.

Japan+Volcano+2011+Photos+Kirishima+Mountain%252CKagoshima+Volcano+Eruption.png

http://alagukanthavel.blogspot.com/2011/01/japan-volcano-2011-videos-kirishima.html
Click to expand...

More stunning photos:

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/...o-eruption-lightning-japan-science-kirishima/
 
The answers to arcticap's questions are available from the physics of electricity and the physical characteristics of the powder.

Black powder is ignited by exposing it to heat above it's ignition temperature; we use percussion caps that generate hot gas or flint on steel that creates hot shards of metal. So-called 'static' electricity is not by it's nature hot; it creates heat by passing electricity through a resistive element such as a metal splinter in the same way an incandescent light bulb is heated.

Black powder is coated with graphite not to prevent the buildup of an electrostatic charge (although it does have that attribute) but to increase it's conductivity (or the opposite, decrease it's resistivity). If the powder is struck by an electrical discharge (a 'bolt' of electricity) it will simply conduct the electrical charge through to other bits of powder or some other conductive medium, such as a metal can. The graphite-coated powder granules will not resist (or more accurately, only very lightly resist) the passage of the electricity and thus not heat up, or at least not nearly enough to ignite.

However, if the powder contains some resistive contaminant, such as a tiny sliver of metal, that material can be heated enough to ignite the powder. Thus, keep your powder clean; it not only works better, it is safer.
 
RCBS Uniflow not for black powder

Interesting, just today I had this same question and went downstairs to bring up one of my extra powder measures. It's an RCBS Uniflow powder measure and on the plastic cap it states not for use with black powder. I carefully examined the enclosed instruction sheet and it made no mention of this warning.
Here is a link to the product and it states the same warning.
https://shop.rcbs.com/WebConnect/Ma...creenlabel=index&productId=2970&route=C07J030

Here's a link to the current instruction sheet and it has warnings all over it:
http://www.rcbs.com/downloads/instructions/Uniflow_Powder_Measure_Instructions.pdf

No explanations though.:confused:

Dan in way too cold and snowy Kansas City
 
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