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Powder for .260 Rem 143gr ELDX (1k yd deer round?)

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by gdcpony, Jan 4, 2018.

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  1. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    I give you that. Especially with today's offerings in which my daughter's Axis was $300 and an hour of work and some reloading made it an MOA gun (until it heats up). Add in the PRS offerings that come in at the same price point I built this rifle for and I must give you this point. When I built it, hunting wasn't even the objective with it. Completing the "milk jug challenge" was. It did that so on to better things. I just don't consider this particular rifle a handicap.
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    30/30 is the other one. My younger daughter wanted us to hunt with twin rifles. I will throw together some 150 gr loads for it. I hope it likes 4320 as I have about 12# of it I picked up on clearance for $15/lb. Minute of pop can at 100 will make me happy.

    The 1895 is back for warranty work right now. I already decided against the FTX pill you see pictured. Going to try some 350gr JFP and cast plinking loads in it once it returns. If that doesn't work to my liking (minute of deer at 200yds max) then on to 405 cast loading that seem to do well for others.

    Yes, as a bow hunter I know exactly what you mean. It is the one factor I can't control/calculate.
     
  2. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    The heart of a deer is the same size as a 1 QT milk jug, not a gallon jug. The lungs are as big as a gallon. I don't hunt when I don't KNOW I'll make the delivery every time.

    Here's a litmus test for you: If you line up 50 milk jugs at 1,000, and I give you 50 rounds, how many will be broken when your bolt locks back?
     
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  3. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    At my current rate 35. I know that isn't acceptable. Hence, the search for a new load. Practice is a given. If it wasn't 13* outside, I might go give it a go though. Only went up to 10 at a time so far.
     
  4. mavracer

    mavracer Member

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    Sure you can if TOF is over ~.4 you control yourself and don't shoot.
     
  5. NeuseRvrRat

    NeuseRvrRat Member

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    Where are you even going to get a 1000 yd shot on a deer in North Carolina?
     
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  6. cp1969

    cp1969 Member

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    Where in the United States would you need to take a 1000 yard shot on a deer?

    If a person can't get closer to a deer than 1000 yards, they need to learn how to hunt, not learn how to shoot.

    If a person CAN get closer than 1000 yards....do it.
     
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  7. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Saying "10 at a time" made me realize, I should have thought more about my hypothetical scenario this morning. If I give you ONE round a day for 50 days, and hang ONE jug at 1,000yrds each day, how many cold bore impacts will you make?

    I often joke with my buddies, "Cold bore" is made of of 2 Four Letter Words because it's really that bad...

    Here's the downside, and it works out very nicely since you're saying 35 out of 50... In a standard distribution group (aka a round group), 68.2% on a 6x10" milk jug is 99.8% reliable on an 18"x30" target. We all like to think our misses are "JUST off of the edge," but when you put a big backer target behind your milk jug, the true group size shows up. Printed on paper, 35/50 on a milk jug is typically an 18" group. Group distribution is something I've seen often neglected by many/most of the new long range shooters out there. When 100% of your cold bore shots hit the milk jug, then 1000yrds on deer has absolutely no unethical component for you. Of course, you'll also be a world leading professional match competitor...

    I take newbies out as part of the classes I offer a few times a year, some of them the first time they've ever shot a rifle, and spot for them to "walk on" to targets at 1,000yrds. The Youtube Milk Jug deal is a game, at best. Your own life right now is a potential gutshot 30% of the time, and as you've said, that's stringing them together. You're picking your environmentals right now, so instead of going out and getting DOPE to know how your load responds to temperature changes, you're just not shooting. Maybe you won't hunt during cold weather either, we don't really have that luxury in the Midwest - our rifle seasons are too short to sit out, and often the coldest days are the best days. I shot my buck this year on the coldest day of the year, high of 22 raw,-5F windchill high... Sucked, thoroughly. I took the opportunity to shoot at a different location during my lunch breaks too - also sucked, thoroughly. But there have been years where I've hunted outside of Eagle, CO at the same temp as my home range in KS that week, but 4,500ft higher, and also outside of Maricopa, AZ, same elevation but 50F warmer than my home range in KS, all within 2wks... My go-to coyote load shifts around 4-6" at 600yrds with those changes, a difference in an ethical kill vs. a gutshot or a miss.

    Here are some examples of what we have to answer to improve cold bore percentages, because Kestrel/AB/Strelok/JBM/4DoF/etc won't always give you the perfect, real-world correction: What's the correction at 1123yrds vs. 982? What's the load do when your temp is 13F in the morning vs. 35F in the midday? What does the mirage do across that particular hunting field as that temperature swings up and back down? How does it respond at 2,100ft elev outside of Asheville vs. 400ft outside of Cincinnati (picking random OH and NC cities in which I've worked)? What's the elevation correction in a right to left 13mph wind? Left to right? These are some of the holes we have to plug to improve cold bore impact percentage.

    And of course, you don't have to beg a milk jug to hold still for 5-10 sec while you range, read, correct, dial, hold, acquire picture, and break, plus another second and a half waiting for the bullet to arrive. I have taken all of my long shots on deer over water or under a feeder, where I know the deer will come in and stop, relaxed, head down, and stay put for a while, and I've used a spotter to read, run, and reread my enviromentals as I focus on position, acquisition, and reticle picture.
     
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  8. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    I went out last week and got some practice in at 500 yards with a very accurate and consistent load I developed when it was 65 degrees. I was suprised to see that under the conditions of 19 degrees it required an additional 0.3 mil in elevation.
     
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  9. taliv

    taliv Moderator Staff Member

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    part of that was probably due to the temp lowering the DA so the air is thicker, and part is probably due to the lower temp lowering your muzzle velocity. for the two powders i use most in 260, they varied 1.7fps/* and .5fps/* so that's 78fps vs 23fps difference. put that in your calculator and see how much difference you get. honestly, it's mostly that as the lower DA is probably only worth a tenth at 500 yards.
     
  10. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    For your replies, please expand. I have a ton of respect for someone with as much knowledge as you do, so please do not take offense.
    I have a few fields, one of which is my "target field" shots of 1500yds possible. The deer come out right where I want them to as well there. The owner gives me permission for 2 does each year. I practice there regularly through the year. I can set up any distance away so stepping it out and starting with shorter shots is no issues. So far I have netted 50, 150, 400, and 600yd deer kills there using less gun (.243, .308, 7x57, .257 respectively). It isn't like I am going out having never shot at range under hunting conditions before.
    I am a bowhunter. I CAN definitely get closer. 7yds from the ground with no blind close enough?
    1167452_647238298660622_1501876943_o.jpg


    For everyone:
    There are different types of hunting and I like pretty much all of the ones I have tried. I have yet to try any bird hunting though I did just pick up a shotgun for it. But pretty much everything else I have tried. I can get close, but the quintessential point to long range shooting for a hunter is to prove those skills on game as well.

    I may have to step up to a magnum. If so, I am not opposed to them. I am simply more confident in the endless number of rounds I can practice with comfortably in a near 0 recoil rifle. The big question to me is getting enough precision and power downrange out of it to do the job. That is the question I am asking. What is the best chance powder I have?

    The ethics are on me and something I have to live with if I make the wrong choice. I will make that choice at that time based on conditions not even I can know right now. It may not be this year that I take the shot because I don't feel ready. May not be for a few if ever. I can be pretty picky and may when the time comes decide I don't feel it is worth it. Who knows? But at least I am asking with honesty for the best odds for the info.

    Have I lost game? Yes. Not many who have hunted as long as I have have not lost at least one of something they hit. When I look back the losses have been at close range and not a single deer over 150yds has not gone into the freezer. Of course, that is also where 90% or more of my kills have been too so the ratio applies. I have helped others recover game that otherwise would have been lost as well which may not be much, but eases my conscience some. I have a dog trained for that just in case as well.
     
  11. cp1969

    cp1969 Member

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    If you can get that close, DO IT.

    I have no objection to shooting at long range INANIMATE targets. You have no business taking a 1000 yard shot at any living creature unless you're a military sniper.
     
  12. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    I respect your choice and opinion. However, us discussing our views may simply lead to neither convincing the other. Sorry. Kinda like me convincing people a crossbow kill is not actually an archery kill. (I hunt with both and still feel that way). It just ends with arguing.

    If you happen to know of a powder you would use for "inanimate" targets with this bullet, please, let me know though.
     
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  13. cp1969

    cp1969 Member

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    No, I can't do that. You'll have to "prove" whatever it is that you need to prove by shooting an animal at that range without my help. If you wanted to talk about how to hit a 6" plate @1,000 yards, that would be different.
     
  14. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    No offense taken. I'm not criticizing your "choices," I'm trying to offer my experience and advice to help you fast track you on your goal, and so you don't follow the same mistakes those of us who have gone before have made. Some people get so blinded by their own idea, they can't see any problems with the plan. That's what I do for a living - plug holes in good ideas to make them great, and prevent catastrophe.

    I referenced the elevation change between OH and NC on the premise it seems as if you live in OH, therefore would get most of your shooting done there, so your DOPE will be based there, while your hunt will be in NC. There are still a lot of questions to answer, even if you try to limit your hunting to days and temperatures. I've hunted in over 20 US states, none of them have constant temperature throughout the day - the flattest temps I've ever hunted are always the worst conditions, where it starts cold and stays cold all day, while normal days might swing from teens to 40's. One year when I hunted NC, we were in the teens in the morning, and upper 30's that afternoon. There are tricks to mitigate temperature effects on your ammunition too.

    243win, 308win, 7x57, and 257roberts at 600yrds and under aren't "less gun" than 260rem. The Mauser and 308win are a lot more gun (or at least should be if you're loading properly), and the 243win and 257bob are effectively the same class as the 260.

    Lots of guys don't care for long range hunting, and often, rightfully so. If a guy does his homework, it's really not so different than any other type of hunting - nobody is sitting on a ridge with a 1000yrd circle of fire around them, because on 99% of that area, the deer simply won't travel, so it's wasted area. I set up my "kill zone" the same, no matter how long my shot might be, whether it's 20yrds with a bow, 200yrds with a revolver, or 1,000yrds with a rifle. The game has to enter the kill zone and stop long enough for a shot. The longer I want to shoot, the more careful I have to be in selecting the kill zone and the shooting position, to allow the proper line of sight, but the game is still going to travel the same small area they travel.
     
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  15. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    Despite a lot of diversion in these two pages, this has already been answered. It's really pretty simple, if you want to play the 260rem at long range with 140grn+ bullets there would be TWO recipes in my mind:

    1) Lapua brass, H4350, Federal 210M

    OR, what I'd REALLY prefer, to gain access to small rifle primers:

    2) Lapua PALMA brass, necked and turned, H4350, CCI450 or BR4

    If either of these don't give consistent performance for your 1,000yrd dreams, then there's something broken in your rifle or in your reloading process.
     
  16. Laphroaig

    Laphroaig Member

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    Exactly, IMO "long range hunting" is an oxymoron.

    Hunting used to be all about woodsmanship and knowing the habits of the animal hunted. Those were the traits that the most successful hunters shared. Get a hand-me-down M94, an orange vest and hat, and you were ready to go. It seems the sport has changed to be equipment orientated, much to the delight of the people who sell that stuff.

    Its a fact that hunting is losing popularity. Could it be that fretting over your equipment isn't as much fun as getting out in the woods and becoming part of nature?
     
  17. joneb

    joneb Member

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    For a .260" at a 1000yds for deer even the 26 Nosler would be a stretch.
    I guess sometimes we need to shoot for the moon to get over the barn.
     
  18. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    I've always found statements like this to be ironic, as I've found the design of long range sets to be more demanding of "woodsmanship" skills and require a heightened understanding of the "habits of the animal hunted" than I ever have found archery hunting or "typical range" rifle hunting. You have to know where the deer will be, how the wind moves, and how the land rises and falls, so you don't cut yourself out of line of sight.

    Our world simply isn't that flat - the farther you back up, the more mother nature puts in your way. Setting up with a bow is daftly simple - walk deer trails, find a good convergence of regular traffic, find a stand or blind position with a sufficient ingress route within 30yrds of the convergence... Done... Rifle hunting at standard ranges, say 100-300yrds, might give access to a few more convergence areas where the game expose themselves along an edge, but then it's equally lower odds because it requires the game to expose itself. When you zoom back another 400-700yrds, you typically don't gain any additional exposure to the game at all - just air time. Again, our world simply isn't flat enough - it's far too easy for a simple 3ft rise or fall in the land to completely obscure the line of sight. I've found dozens on dozens of fantastic spots to hunt with a bow which could never be hunted from 100yrds out. I've found dozens on dozens of spots which are fantastic opportunities for 100-400yrd rifle hunting, which also could never be hunted from 500-1,000yrds... When you're hunting on a "micro scale," as in very close to the game, the land rarely works against you. Move back a half mile and you'd be amazed at the percentage of the field which is either obscured, OR which would never, ever receive game traffic (aka, wasted field of view).

    A wannabe long range rifle hunter plopping himself down on a ridge line overlooking any old field with a treeline a half mile away has no better odds than some wannabe bowhunter who hangs his stand over a 3yr old rubline... But a guy who sets of a productive 600yrd deer set has to know his land and his deer-herd better, in my experience in doing both, than the bowhunter who picked the biggest tree on the downwind side of a deer trail.
     
  19. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    The BR2's are on hand, the H4350 and H1000 are supposed to be in this week, and well I have 200 new Hornady brass (.243 sized up) prepped so I will try that first since it is ready to go. The bullets are on order as well.
    I could not have said this any better. While you do down play the skill required of actually executing a bowhunt once that deer is front and center (drawing unseen, getting some semblance of form, making sure the deer is relaxed to minimize string jumping), the rest is really true.
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
  20. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    No downplay by me - if I can do it, it can't be very hard. I started deer hunting as kid with a 60lb recurve when I weighed only 10lbs more than my draw weight.
     
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  21. Varminterror

    Varminterror Member

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    How are the necks in the Hornady brass after bringing in that shoulder? Or are you reaming/turning?
     
  22. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    I’m not moralizing here when I say this. The OP is free to hunt what he wants how he wants.

    I just know how difficult it is to get a first round hit on a stationary target the size of a deer's vital area at 1,000 yards with a purpose built target rifle from a supported prone position.

    It's a low percentage proposition.

    To do it with an AR platform in field conditions (off hand, propped up on a fence post, shooting sticks, out a deer blind widow?) Well, you see the point. The least relevant question to me would be, "what powder should I use?"

    Do you have a place to practice at these distances?

    p.s.

    Now this is me and my psyche. Take it for what it's worth. I put a good shot on a deer that I feel 100% confident in (distance is irrelevant) but he isn't DRT. I get to where he was and don't find blood. Self doubt starts to set in. I begin looking. He went in this direction. I keep looking, no blood. ****! Did I hit him? I keep walking and looking. Every step = more doubt. I replay the shot in my mind. Did I flinch? I expand the search radius. I begin to think about the guys back at the camp and the good natured needling that's waiting for me if I don't find this deer......etc......etc.

    That sucks!
     
    Last edited: Jan 8, 2018
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  23. cp1969

    cp1969 Member

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    Exactly. With a necked-up .243, no less. I think it was just a way of stirring the pot and I was dumb enough to take the bait.
     
  24. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

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    As said above, not only do I have a place to practice, I can practice in the same exact field that I plan to make the shot in from the spot I plan to shoot from.

    I know what you mean about not finding sign right away. Had that feeling. I sit back, take a break and call for friends and my dog and do everything I can.
    I turn to uniform, but most only show a slight scraping on one side. Hornady brass is actually pretty good stuff. I would have to get back home and measure for neck thickness as I don't recall it. I am at work at the moment in training (networking course).
     
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  25. Nature Boy

    Nature Boy Member

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    Well, it sounds like you're all set. Good luck and happy hunting. :thumbup:
     
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