powder question;Clays?

[deerheart]

new pistol reloader. noticed in sierra manual 9mm 90 gr. bullet lists 3 different clays powders clays, universal clays, intern'l clays. confusion insued. help with the differience and why.

 

[smovlov]

Deleted due to dangerous brain fart.

 

[Mal H]

They are three different powders, and Hodgdon should never have used that naming scheme due to the confusion it does cause. They all have different burn rates, so be sure to use the one specified in the load manual. The fastest one is plain Clays, followed by International, and then Universal.

If it says "Clays" only, then that's what you use, if it says "Universal Clays" or sometimes just "Universal", then that one is what you use, etc.

They are not interchangeable.

 

[Reloadron]

The Hodgdon family of Clays consist of three powders. Hodgon Clays, Hodgon Universal Clays and finally Hodgon International Clays. More commonly called Clays, Universal and International.

Clays:

Introduced in January, 1992, CLAYS gunpowder has "taken the clay target world by storm". It is the cleanest burning , most consistent 12 ga. 7/8., 1 oz. and 1 1/8 oz. powder available today, the preferred choice of competitive target shooters.. The superb burning characteristics of this powder produce soft, smooth recoil and excellent patterns. These features transfer directly to handgun applications where target shooting is the main goal. 45 ACP and 38 Special are only two of the cartridges where CLAYS gunpowder provides "tack driving" target accuracy with flawless functioning. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

International:

INTERNATIONAL gunpowder is the second in the "CLAYS" gunpowder series of powders, bringing this technology to the 20 gauge reloader. It also works in 12 ga., 2 3/4" light, medium and heavy 1 1/8 oz. loads, and high velocity 1 oz. As with CLAYS gunpowder, clean burning and flawless functioning is the rule. Available in 14 oz., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

Universal:

UNIVERSAL gunpowder handles the broadest spectrum of cartridges for both pistol and shotgun. This is the Clays gunpowder technology designed for 28 gauge shooters. From the 25 ACP to the 44 magnum and 28 gauge to 12 gauge, UNIVERSAL CLAYS gunpowder provides outstanding performance. As with all the "CLAYS" gunpowder series powders, clean burning and uniformity are part of its attributes. Available in 1 lb., 4 lb. & 8 lb. containers.

Each is a member of the "Clays" series. Why they did it this way I haven't a clue but does lend some confusion to the naming conventions.

Ron

 

[ArchAngelCD]

You can read it first hand and see the 3 different entries on the Hodgdon site:
http://www.hodgdon.com/shotpist.html

 

[7mmb]

Three different names for three different powders. What's the confusion? Not nearly as confusing as all of the 4350 powders; AA, H, IMR...

smovlov wrote: "Typically when people refer to clays in the context of pistol powders they are speaking about universal clays."

Actually, when I refer to "Clays" in the context of pistol powders I am referring to Clays, it has fairly broad applications in pistols. I use it in 45 Auto and there is published data for many other pistol cartridges. When I refer to "Universal" I am referring to Universal Clays. I use it in 9mm, 357, 45 Colt, and 45 Auto and there is published data for just about every pistol cartridge.

 

[Potatohead]

Three different names for three different powders. What's the confusion? Not nearly as confusing as all of the 4350 powders; AA, H, IMR

You've got a point there. All those "numbered" powders sometimes cause my brain some discombobulation.

 

[oneounceload]

Typically when people refer to clays in the context of pistol powders they are speaking about universal clays.

Absolutely FALSE and dangerous to state

Clays, Universal Clays and International Clays are three distinct and different powders with different burn rates and pressure levels

And adding Clay Dot into the mix makes it even more paramount to be precise

 

[smovlov]

one ounce. Deleted it. I got mixed up with universal and the fact that everyone calls it universal but there's no powder called just universal. My bad.

 

[kerreckt]

Very simple. Already been stated but worth saying again. Exactly what the name says. Clays is Clays. Universal Clays is Universal Clays and International Clays is International Clays. All three different and not interchangeable. Just like a family with the same last name. They share a name but they are not the same.

 

[tightgroup tiger]

and the fact that everyone calls it universal but there's no powder called just universal. My bad.

No, there really isn't but:

Actually, everyone I know that uses it, just calls it "Universal". We all know what they are talking about and have accepted that single name for it, just like we know what Unique is. If I hear the word "Clays" I go on "Red alert" because the other two Clays powders are faster burning than Universal.

I'm perfectly comfortable with the term Universal despite it being improper by not including the Hodgdon or Clays name that's attached to it.

I don't use the other two for anything and probably never will. Maybe that's why I only recognize the Universal name.

 

[rsrocket1]

The "Clays" family of powders are all made by Thales in Australia (formerly ADI). They all use similar technology in manufacturing the powder, hence the "Clays" name given to them by Hodgdon. Here's a list of their powders and Hodgdon equivalents (including Varget), and here's ADI's website which also has some vague information on their delivery problems with the Clays line of powders.

For a rough estimate of burn properties and Alliant equivalents:
Clays/Titewad (Hodgdon) - Clay Dot (Alliant) are close. They are good for low velocity pistol loads and generate high pressures without driving the bullet too fast.

International Clays (Hodgdon) - Green Dot (Alliant) slightly slower powder that can drive bullets a little faster than above, but still a little fast to be considered a "medium speed powder"

Universal Clays (Hodgdon) - Unique (Alliant) medium speed good all around powders for most pistol loads. Hodgdon sells Universal as a direct competitor to Unique just like Alliant sells Clay Dot as a competitor to Clays.

From my experience, the Clays family of powders does burn more completely than the Alliant equivalents, but they are also usually more expensive and for the price difference, I don't mind a couple more minutes at the cleaning bench after a shooting session.

 

[sexybeast]

new pistol reloader. noticed in sierra manual 9mm 90 gr. bullet lists 3 different clays powders clays, universal clays, intern'l clays. confusion insued. help with the differience and why

Looked this thread over twice and did not see any mention of no loading data for metalic cartridges with International Clays.
I was given a few pounds a couple years ago and could find no data for it. Did some research and a statement from Hogdon I found basically said: Internationl Clays is not suitable for metalic cartridges." It would be interesting if someone had some published material.
I like Universal, regular Clays is something you need to be extra careful with. Many fellow shooters like how clean it is, but are wary of pressure spikes.

 

[deerheart]

Thanks for the replys. Just learning.