Stew0576
Addicted
Don't plan to do it but was wondering if i needed to do long term storage of powder if vacuum sealing it would make it last longer?
Powder storage
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Blue68f100
Member
My only concern about a vacuum is that it will remove the light ends (solvents/chemical) left behind during the mfg process. I think a batter way would be to use a air tight, non permeable material and purge a Nitrogen/argon or some other inert gas to remove the moisture, then seal.
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Stew0576
Addicted
Put the whole jug in a bag and vacuum seal it, i know it's not needed just was wondering if it would store longer
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Stew0576
Addicted
Just something that popped into my head is all
Dudedog
Contributing Member
Just shoot more and you won't have to worry about it.
....But I need to order more bullets because I had to use up the other ones so I could use the powder before it went bad.
(from the above line you can tell I'm not married)
....But I need to order more bullets because I had to use up the other ones so I could use the powder before it went bad.
(from the above line you can tell I'm not married)
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Stew0576
Addicted
Lol, married with 4 kids, makes things harder but i can't complain, I've spent over 2k on guns in the last 12 months
Toprudder
Member
My thoughts as well.
One of the bad things about vacuum sealing is that, well, it is a slight vacuum. Most materials, especially just about any kind of plastic, is permeable to moisture. When kept in a constant temperature and pressure environment, the intrusion of moisture is extremely slow. Rather than vacuum sealing, I like the idea of a nitrogen environment at ambient, or slightly above ambient, pressure.
But if the powder is stored in a cool, dry, and fairly constant environment, I think this is totally unnecessary.
edwardware
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Yup, lower overall pressure is probably slightly negative for this reason. Lowering the oxygen partial pressure (i.e. with dry nitrogen) would be positive, but I doubt you could measure the impact in a single lifetime. Cool, dry, dark storage will keep powder useful for 50+ years.
LUCKYDAWG13
Member
I would just keep in the plastic containers that it comes in and keep in a cool dry and dark place it will last
Bayourambler
Member
I use a little mini fridge that doesn’t work any more, it’s is pretty airtight.
See post #25 in this thread, the guy lives in a cool and low humidity location.
Bad powder at such young age
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bad-powder-at-such-young-age.840053/
Ionic compounds hasten the deterioration of gunpowder by interacting with the double bonds in nitrocellulose. Water is polar covalent, is a weird and miraculous compound, without which life on this planet would not exist if not for its screw ball properties. Water acts ionic due to the distribution of charge on the molecule, and as such, condensation and evaporation of humidity in air, which is going on all the time, will break down gunpowder. That is also why you should not pour a can of iron filings, or rust, into your gunpowder, or pour anything else that will react with the NO double bonds. Hence, the warning about dry.
Understand this, gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound and it is breaking down from the day it leaves the factory. It is not going to be immortal in a vacuum pack. Heat is the primary enemy of gunpowder. Heat deteriorates gunpowder, and it is an exponential deterioration. The hotter it is, the faster the gunpowder deteriorates.
Heat is used to accelerate deterioration, and ammunition stockpiles are tested, typically at 165 F, to see how long it takes for the gunpowder to fume. If it fumes within 30 days, it is withdrawn from inventory. This is a 1970 chart, but worth looking at.
This is not a simple issue and there are books and chapters addressing this:
So, in general, keep your ammunition and gunpowder cool and dry. Inspect at reasonable intervals. Break the seals on your gunpowder and sniff.
If your ammunition starts blowing primers or cracking case necks, pull the bullets and dump the powder. The gunpowder is outgassing and having burn rate instability.
Similar to the advice of eating right and exercising, and not smoking, there is little more you can do to extend the shelf life of your gunpowder. But, unpredictable things happen. I knew a guy who never smoked, never drank, ate right, and in his 40's died of a heart attack on the jogging track. Bummer, do every thing right and you still end up just as dead as that bug on your windshield. Same can happen to your gunpowder. You can do everything right, and your gunpowder may burst into flame and burn your house down.
Prudent thing to do, inspect, shoot the oldest stuff up, and blow it all down range before gets to be 20 years old. I picked twenty because I am been tossing Accurate Arms AA4064, Vihtavouri N140, and N135 that are all around 20 years old. It can go bad earlier, but, gunpowder really goes down hill around 20 years of age.
The guys who posted these pictures of their WW2 era gunpowder hoards, they think by not breaking the seal, their hoard will last forever. Oops, wrong!
They will be lucky if they wake up with their house in flames. It is more likely they will die in their sleep, when their house bursts into flames.
While auto combusting gunpowder did not kill the Norris family, a kerosene heater did, none of them apparently woke up when their trailer caught on fire.
Who is not showing is Grand Dad. Grand Dad died trying to pull his grand kids and daughter in law out of the burning trailer. He did not make it. Son was not there at the time, can only guess what happened a year later. Someone still grieves over the loss.
Bad powder at such young age
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/bad-powder-at-such-young-age.840053/
Ionic compounds hasten the deterioration of gunpowder by interacting with the double bonds in nitrocellulose. Water is polar covalent, is a weird and miraculous compound, without which life on this planet would not exist if not for its screw ball properties. Water acts ionic due to the distribution of charge on the molecule, and as such, condensation and evaporation of humidity in air, which is going on all the time, will break down gunpowder. That is also why you should not pour a can of iron filings, or rust, into your gunpowder, or pour anything else that will react with the NO double bonds. Hence, the warning about dry.
Understand this, gunpowder is a high energy compound breaking down to a low energy compound and it is breaking down from the day it leaves the factory. It is not going to be immortal in a vacuum pack. Heat is the primary enemy of gunpowder. Heat deteriorates gunpowder, and it is an exponential deterioration. The hotter it is, the faster the gunpowder deteriorates.
Heat is used to accelerate deterioration, and ammunition stockpiles are tested, typically at 165 F, to see how long it takes for the gunpowder to fume. If it fumes within 30 days, it is withdrawn from inventory. This is a 1970 chart, but worth looking at.
This is not a simple issue and there are books and chapters addressing this:
So, in general, keep your ammunition and gunpowder cool and dry. Inspect at reasonable intervals. Break the seals on your gunpowder and sniff.
If your ammunition starts blowing primers or cracking case necks, pull the bullets and dump the powder. The gunpowder is outgassing and having burn rate instability.
Similar to the advice of eating right and exercising, and not smoking, there is little more you can do to extend the shelf life of your gunpowder. But, unpredictable things happen. I knew a guy who never smoked, never drank, ate right, and in his 40's died of a heart attack on the jogging track. Bummer, do every thing right and you still end up just as dead as that bug on your windshield. Same can happen to your gunpowder. You can do everything right, and your gunpowder may burst into flame and burn your house down.
Prudent thing to do, inspect, shoot the oldest stuff up, and blow it all down range before gets to be 20 years old. I picked twenty because I am been tossing Accurate Arms AA4064, Vihtavouri N140, and N135 that are all around 20 years old. It can go bad earlier, but, gunpowder really goes down hill around 20 years of age.
The guys who posted these pictures of their WW2 era gunpowder hoards, they think by not breaking the seal, their hoard will last forever. Oops, wrong!
They will be lucky if they wake up with their house in flames. It is more likely they will die in their sleep, when their house bursts into flames.
While auto combusting gunpowder did not kill the Norris family, a kerosene heater did, none of them apparently woke up when their trailer caught on fire.
Who is not showing is Grand Dad. Grand Dad died trying to pull his grand kids and daughter in law out of the burning trailer. He did not make it. Son was not there at the time, can only guess what happened a year later. Someone still grieves over the loss.
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Toprudder
Member
I wonder if periodically checking the powder with an IR thermometer would be a good indicator. If one jug is a degree or two warmer than the rest, would indicate a problem.
I don't know. A Naval Insensitive Munitions expert diagrammed an image of a molecule and the temperature it had to reach to auto combust. If just one molecule reached that temperature, the whole pile went up. I don't think it is possible to measure the temperature of the pile, and find the hot spot.
If it were that easy, industry would not have to worry about coal dust explosions
This is a plain old dust explosion, nothing serious, right?
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If you're concerned about humidity this may be your easiest solution. Bag your powder with one of these.
https://www.amazon.com/Industry-Sta...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SJQHDZA9FVSQFJ65NJCK
https://www.amazon.com/Industry-Sta...coding=UTF8&psc=1&refRID=SJQHDZA9FVSQFJ65NJCK
frankmako
Member
Put the factory powder container inside a army ammo can. Works for me. I am on the last pound of a 8 pound can of sr4756 that I got in 84. Still good as day one. I have other powders that were from the 80's that check out good. These powders started in El Paso, then Miami, then Key Largo, then Washington DC, then now in Southeast Tennessee. Kept in the garage and/or basement. So Army ammo cans for me. Now I know someone will say by keeping powder in a ammo can is a bomb. But I don't care, it keeps my powder dry and a long life.
That's why I don't horde powder. Like to use up what I have fairly quick. Only keep fresh powder on hand and not a lot. I've been reloading for 45 years and never really had trouble finding powder to buy. Even during the shortage scare.
ray15
Member
- Joined
- Apr 18, 2017
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- 946
While this may keep it dry, sealing it up in a steel container may also make an effective bomb in case of fire. It's strongly recommended to store powder in a non-sealed steel cabinet or wooden powder vault so pressure can't build up if it burns.
Initially I was going to simply say that vacuum sealing original containers was a pointless exercise but in fact it has some theoretical advantages.
Most modern containers are made of HDPE which are highly resistant to passage of water vapour but not so much to oxygen. On the other hand PET (used for vacuum bags) is the opposite. So encasing the original container HDPE in a PET bag gives the best of both worlds. A slight vacuum would also remove air from direct contact with the HDPE and minimise bulk.
Whether this makes a difference in the real world is moot.
I have plenty of 40+ year old powder that is perfectly good but it has been stored well. An old (non working ) refrigerator minimises temperature variations and silica gel in the fridge stops mould and minimises humidity to prevent rust as some of my powder is still in cans or original cardboard containers with metal bottoms and lids.
The only powder I have ever had go bad was an old tin of IMR4350 which was given to me so I don't know its storage history. It really is obvious the when stuff is going bad so an annual check is in order.
Most modern containers are made of HDPE which are highly resistant to passage of water vapour but not so much to oxygen. On the other hand PET (used for vacuum bags) is the opposite. So encasing the original container HDPE in a PET bag gives the best of both worlds. A slight vacuum would also remove air from direct contact with the HDPE and minimise bulk.
Whether this makes a difference in the real world is moot.
I have plenty of 40+ year old powder that is perfectly good but it has been stored well. An old (non working ) refrigerator minimises temperature variations and silica gel in the fridge stops mould and minimises humidity to prevent rust as some of my powder is still in cans or original cardboard containers with metal bottoms and lids.
The only powder I have ever had go bad was an old tin of IMR4350 which was given to me so I don't know its storage history. It really is obvious the when stuff is going bad so an annual check is in order.
Bayourambler
Member
I have a friend that stored about 15 lbs in of powder a gunsafe inside his home. I talked him into taking that out of there.
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