Powder substitutions

[sirtunes]

I have the Lyman Shotshell handbook (5th edition) and had hoped to find a list of possible substitute powders in the gun powder section. Anyone know if there is such a list? With all the smokeless powders out there and all the various burn rates, it would seem some of those powders might be interchangeable (not mixed).
Any remarks?

 

[D.B. Cooper]

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

 

[Thomasss]

There is no complete list unless you want to start one. Jim Thompson is his many books on the M-1 Garand has a nice list of possible powder recipes suitable for the M-1. And Unique, H-4895, H-4831 and IMR-4064 have quite a following because of their wide acceptance of different calibers and bullets weights. However, powder companies have been going in the opposite direction in the last 10 years. They are all developing caliber specific powder, so now you almost have to have 1 lb. powder for each type of firearm. For example, 12, 16 and 20 gauge shotguns used to be loaded with one powder for small game. Now checking with Alliant, one can no longer do that. It's two or maybe 3, depending upon the application. That's where Unique comes in to load to some degree for shotguns, not to mention also it's wide use in loading pistol ammo.

 

[jmr40]

Specifically what are you looking for. I don't load for shot shells, but when it comes to rifles there are usually multiple powders that are acceptable

 

[22250Rem]

So far all I've done is consult reloading manuals for a specific cartridge and see what powders they list for that cartridge. Sometimes there is a broader spectrum of usable powders than I would have thought.

 

[Jim Watson]

I have the Lyman Shotshell handbook (5th edition) and had hoped to find a list of possible substitute powders in the gun powder section. Anyone know if there is such a list? With all the smokeless powders out there and all the various burn rates, it would seem some of those powders might be interchangeable (not mixed).
Any remarks?

Grain for grain? Hardly ever.
As good as, sure.

 

[brewer12345]

Please be very careful when substituting powders in shotshell loads. In metallic loading you get various pressure signs before there is a problem. In shotshell reloading your first pressure sign is likely to be a burst barrel or similar. Stick to published recipes for the powders you have access to.

 

[cfullgraf]

I have the Lyman Shotshell handbook (5th edition) and had hoped to find a list of possible substitute powders in the gun powder section. Anyone know if there is such a list? With all the smokeless powders out there and all the various burn rates, it would seem some of those powders might be interchangeable (not mixed).
Any remarks?

The short answer is...

There is no interchange list because except for two or three pairs of powders, no two powders can be interchanged grain for grain.

The best advice is to NEVER assume two powders can be exchanged grain for grain and always consult reputable loading data.

Also, in my opinion, do not get too hung up on burn rates. Look at burn rate charts from different sources and they vary some from one list to another.

 

[Archie]

I will second (or third) the warning about 'grain for grain' substitution is dangerous.
That said, the various "burn rate" charts do show relative burn rates and suggest powders that may be similar.

(quick detour) The ONLY real difference in 'handgun' powder, 'shotgun' powder and 'rifle' powder (and cannon powder, for that matter) is BURN RATE. Yes, some powders are 'flake', some are 'spherical' and some are extruded. It is the rate of burn that makes for how much to use with a certain cartridge and a certain bullet. (back to regular programming)

Briefly examine a loading manual and see how many loads there are for .38 Special using a 148 grain solid wadcutter. Note how many different powders. Note how the velocities are all rather close together, as are the pressure levels. Same for shotguns. Same for rifles, one might more variance in resulting velocities. In a pinch one can use a different powder than usual, but usually not the same weight or volume. Use a loading manual, even if you have a 'secret family recipe' and cannot find Xxx powder right now.

 

[Bill M.]

No substitutes or list of such. Use the data for the specific powder. There is loading data available for all available powder. Pick powders with similar chemistry and burn rate to get similar loads but use the correct data for the new powder.

 

[GaryL]

Welcome to the board.

I think this is worth repeating:

The short answer is...

There is no interchange list because except for two or three pairs of powders, no two powders can be interchanged grain for grain.

The best advice is to NEVER assume two powders can be exchanged grain for grain and always consult reputable loading data.

Also, in my opinion, do not get too hung up on burn rates. Look at burn rate charts from different sources and they vary some from one list to another.

Personally, I like loads with good case fill, which requires a bit more research. Sometimes all you can do is figure out what's available locally (or in bulk online), and pick one based on doing some homework. If you can, pick up a couple suitable powders locally in 1lb lots and give them a try.
About 15-20 years ago, an older guy I knew was selling off his old reloading stuff, and I bought some of the shotshell powders he had. So I figured out how to work with those, and they make fine handgun loads.

THR is here to help. Don't be afraid to ask.

 

[WeekendReloader]

Like said above, no direct substitutions. There are similar powders though.
Here is a list from ADI that shows possible alternatives for powders with similar burn characteristics.
http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Of course there's this thread which includes some same exact powders with different labels such as Winchester 231 / Hodgdon HP-38, Winchester 296 / Hodgdon H110, etc. as well as similar (not same except for label) powders

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-close-powders-under-different-labels.797388/

in the Reloading Library of Wisdom sticky at the top of this sub-forum

ADI has an equivalency chart that mixes some powders that are exactly the same except for the label on the container with similar (not grain for grain) powders so don't assume all powders in a given row are grain for grain

http://www.adi-powders.com.au/powder-equivalents/

In addition to burn rate charts others have mentioned.

 

[Howland937]

Agree with everyone else. There are no even trades, although with some research you can find powders that have changed names and/or are the same powder, labeled differently yet owned by the same parent company.
The "interchange" is the list of suitable powders for specific loads with corresponding data in published manuals.

 

[Random 8]

If you can find one of the old Hercules and IMR manuals from the '90s, you will find as close to what you are looking for as exists. In these, you'll find different powders listed in an easy to follow table resembling a spreadsheet using otherwise identical components.

I'll repeat the above warnings, these are not grain for grain substitutions, but substitution by application i.e. same wad, hull, shot charge, primer, velocity with different powders at different charges.

I believe some of the Ballistic products manuals follow a similar format, but have no personal experience with these.

 

[Fishingted]

I have the Lyman Shotshell handbook (5th edition) and had hoped to find a list of possible substitute powders in the gun powder section. Anyone know if there is such a list? With all the smokeless powders out there and all the various burn rates, it would seem some of those powders might be interchangeable (not mixed).
Any remarks?

I load a LOT shotgun shells. The problem with trying to substitute powders is more complex then in a metallic cartridge. different powders have different Bulks and flake size ects. To make a good shotgun shell all components MUST work together. Combinations of wads, powder, load weight all combine to properly fill the shell and get a Good Crimp. Not any room to play. and You HAVE to get a Proper Crimp or nothing else matters. I make Nothing but book Loads. the only play you may have may be in wad brands. Do Not substitute 209 magnum primers for regular 209s either. In a Lot of ways a Good shotgun shell is more difficult to produce than a good bullet.

 

[rfwobbly]

https://imrpowder.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/12/2020-burn-rate-chart.pdf

This is a powder burn-rate chart. Powders that are adjacent to each other burn at similar rates, assumably creating similar chamber pressures and velocities, all other things being equal.

This is absolutely not true as stated.
True. That is a valid Burn Rate Chart.
Untrue. The powders are not spaced at even increments. The difference between powder #34 and #35 may be 2 "combustion units". The difference between powder #35 and #36 may be 50 "combustion units".

So you cannot simply pick an adjacent powder and assume it will behave the same as, plus the small increment you desire.

A Burn Rate Chart is like a ranking of race winners. The difference between 1st and 2nd place may have been 2 seconds. But the difference between 2nd and 3rd place may have been 4 hours. So you cannot compare the ability of #1 and #2 to the ability of #3, even though that is their listed ranking.

 

[Random 8]

I load a LOT shotgun shells. The problem with trying to substitute powders is more complex then in a metallic cartridge. different powders have different Bulks and flake size ects. To make a good shotgun shell all components MUST work together. Combinations of wads, powder, load weight all combine to properly fill the shell and get a Good Crimp. Not any room to play. and You HAVE to get a Proper Crimp or nothing else matters. I make Nothing but book Loads. the only play you may have may be in wad brands. Do Not substitute 209 magnum primers for regular 209s either. In a Lot of ways a Good shotgun shell is more difficult to produce than a good bullet.

This is mostly correct. Over 35 years of loading shotgun shells, I have noticed, however, that there are "families" of components that work well together with substitutions within the family. An example would be for a 1 1/8 oz target load using the Gold Medal hull. This hull has a lot of space to fill. Each component change will have separate data, but good crimps and loads of 1150-1200 fps can be obtained with POWDER ABSOLUTELY NOT AT SAME CHARGE WEIGHTS: Red Dot, Promo, Clays, Clay dot, Green Dot, American Select, WST, Extra Light, and probably others. WAD: 12s3, WAA12, Wt12, Rem Fig8, WAASL and some of the european wads and others. Primer: loads are listed for most commercially available primers by respective powder manufacturers. If the OP could give us an example of his basic load platform he wishes to duplicate and substitute for, some more specific information could be provided.

 

[MEHavey]

burn-rate chart. Powders that are adjacent to each other burn at similar rates, assumably creating similar chamber pressures and velocities

PLEASE don't do that.

Published/listed/charted Burn Rates are static measures that relate to the beginning of combustion.
They tell you absolutely nothing of what that burn rate is doing during combustion -- or how much
energy is released during that burn.

See https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...create-unpublished-loads.752605/#post-9480086
and https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/burn-rate.763373/#post-9645651
and https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/causes-of-low-pressure-223.837862/page-2#post-10858322

please please, please.....

.

 

[PapaG]

Grain for grain? Hardly ever.
As good as, sure.

Amen

 

[Fishingted]

This is mostly correct. Over 35 years of loading shotgun shells, I have noticed, however, that there are "families" of components that work well together with substitutions within the family. An example would be for a 1 1/8 oz target load using the Gold Medal hull. This hull has a lot of space to fill. Each component change will have separate data, but good crimps and loads of 1150-1200 fps can be obtained with POWDER ABSOLUTELY NOT AT SAME CHARGE WEIGHTS: Red Dot, Promo, Clays, Clay dot, Green Dot, American Select, WST, Extra Light, and probably others. WAD: 12s3, WAA12, Wt12, Rem Fig8, WAASL and some of the european wads and others. Primer: loads are listed for most commercially available primers by respective powder manufacturers. If the OP could give us an example of his basic load platform he wishes to duplicate and substitute for, some more specific information could be provided.

Great Advice. I mentioned about the magnum primers from my first experience loading 1-1/8 ounce target with red dot. The store told me to use magnum primers cause it was a large powder load. Burnt Hell out of my cases, and they were useless after That. Lesson Learned!!!! Fortunately I had not made up a lot of them.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

This is absolutely not true as stated.

PLEASE don't do that.

I appreciate your input, from both of you. It's not often I have to do this, but I deleted my post with the incorrect info. That was how I learned to use that chart, here at THR; guess I was misinformed. Thanks for the correction.

 

[MEHavey]

Ego te absolvo a peccatis tuis....
(It's the Season)

 

[Mr. Zorg]

Plus even burn rate charts from Hodgdon don't show which powders are truly grain for grain, such as Winchester 231 / Hodgdon HP38, Winchester 296 / Hodgdon H110 on the same line number.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAOegQIFRAB&usg=AOvVaw2rqDViaKAb7iGaIBVkTE4_

 

[rfwobbly]

I appreciate your input, from both of you. It's not often I have to do this, but I deleted my post with the incorrect info. That was how I learned to use that chart, here at THR; guess I was misinformed. Thanks for the correction.

"No body knows everything." That's the idea everyone needs to adopt who joins a community, on-line or otherwise. Next week will be our time to learn from you. I'm looking forward to the opportunity.