Powders that ignite easily with lead free primers?

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Berger.Fan222

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Working on reducing lead because a buddy has high blood lead levels.

Hodgdon Titegroup seems to work well with the imported lead free primers (Tula), but we've seen some ignition delays and misfires with most other powders tried.

We're looking for solid leads on other (slower) powders that ignite easily and will work well with lead free primers, trying to find powders across the spectrum: fast pistol, medium pistol, slow pistol, fast rifle, med rifle, slow rifle, etc.

What have you seen work well? Do you have any idea why it works well? Chemical composition? Particle shape? Particle size?
 
If Tula (Russian Company) is using Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) priming compound, I don't see why there would be a problem with igniting powders. It has a much higher brisance than Lead Styphnate does, which is why all the experimentation with primer pocket sizes, flash hole sizes and crimped primers by the big domestic manufacturers. It could be a QC problem on their part, rather than a priming compound issue.

I personally don't buy anything Russian, having grown up in the 50's, when they were going to "burn us off the map", and still remember all the duck and cover drills in grammer school...... But that's just me.

If your friend is shooting at an indoor range, he should stop immediately. He also needs to practice good personal hygiene when handling lead and while shooting. Hand washing is the most important thing a person can do when it comes to lead contamination. Another thing he can do is take large doses of Vitamin C. A friend of mine did that and it reduced his lead levels dramatically.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
If Tula (Russian Company) is using Diazodinitrophenol (DDNP) priming compound, I don't see why there would be a problem with igniting powders. It has a much higher brisance than Lead Styphnate does, which is why all the experimentation with primer pocket sizes, flash hole sizes and crimped primers by the big domestic manufacturers. It could be a QC problem on their part, rather than a priming compound issue.

We worked pretty hard a while back to obtain lead free primers from ATK, and those also had problems igniting most powders we tried them with. (Both use DDNP.) Higher brisance does not mean more reliable powder ignition. Others have reported ignition issues with other brands of DDNP-based lead free primers (Fiocchi), so it seems likely to be an inherent issue with DDNP primers.

I personally don't buy anything Russian, having grown up in the 50's, when they were going to "burn us off the map", and still remember all the duck and cover drills in grammer school...... But that's just me.

I have the same preference, but right now, the Tula lead free primers are the only game in town. None of the US companies (ATK, Win, Rem, etc.) sell a lead free primer as a reloading component, and the Fiocchi's are out of stock everywhere. If you have a definite source for lead free primers that are actually available, that would be useful. Without alternatives, the advice not to buy Russian is useless.

If your friend is shooting at an indoor range, he should stop immediately. He also needs to practice good personal hygiene when handling lead and while shooting. Hand washing is the most important thing a person can do when it comes to lead contamination. Another thing he can do is take large doses of Vitamin C. A friend of mine did that and it reduced his lead levels dramatically.

Hope this helps.

Not really. The problem was traced to inadequate ventilation and has become a legal and OSHA issue for the range involved. But friends and family are looking for ways to enhance lead safety in indoor ranges, so solving the lead free primer ignition problem is an important piece of it. Safety is always about redundant layers of protection. Getting the lead out of the primer (without compromizing performance) is an important part of that redundancy. Telling an NRA Training Counselor to stop shooting at indoor ranges is not helpful.
 
If you will go to the Wikipedia page for DDNP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazodinitrophenol

Then open the .pdf file linked to in footnote 5, you will see a study paid for (at least in part) by the Air Force Academy that discusses consideration of DDNP primers as a potential replacement for lead styphnate primers in service rifles.

I have not simply attached the .pdf file because of copyright concerns as it is not clear that it is in the public domain.
 
If you will go to the Wikipedia page for DDNP: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diazodinitrophenol

Then open the .pdf file linked to in footnote 5, you will see a study paid for (at least in part) by the Air Force Academy that discusses consideration of DDNP primers as a potential replacement for lead styphnate primers in service rifles.

I have not simply attached the .pdf file because of copyright concerns as it is not clear that it is in the public domain.

Thanks for the link. I've done my homework and read all the info I can find on the lead free primers, including the series of papers by those authors. They seem to be addressing the question from the perspective of "What primer will work with any and all powders?" (Or at least the military powders already in use.)

But since I'm bound by the practical limitations of the lead free primers I can actually BUY, I'm really trying to view the problem from the opposite viewpoint: "What powders work well with the available lead free primers?"
 
"...lead is a much bigger problem than most of us realize..." It's not really. It takes a great deal of long term exposure to get poisoned.
Using lead free primers is not going help your buddy who has high blood lead levels. Neither will using lead free bullets.
Used to shoot indoors with a guy, an Ontario Hydro engineer(power company), who cast bullets in his poorly ventilated garage and was exposed at work, who had to quit shooting and casting for 6 months. Nobody else in the club was affected in any way. So indoor shooting alone is not a cause of lead poisoning.
Anyway, if primers were as big a deal as some places think, Europe being one(where the population is far more concentrated), all the manufacturers would be making lead free components.
"...What powders work well with the available lead free primers..." Leaded or not doesn't matter. However, lead free primers, Russian made in particular, have proven to be less reliable with any powder.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ts-in-dept-of-defense-lead-free-primer-tests/
 
Either way you look at it, indoor ranges have been traced to many peoples elevated lead problems, and stopping shooting at them has lowered levels. A choice.

Yep, that's one way to address the problem. But the shooter in question has purchased a facility to use as an indoor range. With complete control of who shoots and what gets shot at that facility, there is no need to avoid indoor ranges. Finding lead free loads that work reliably can reduce his ongoing lead exposure to zero without completely avoiding indoor ranges.

It would also prove useful for others who may not be able to completely avoid indoor ranges. In most of the US south of I-10, shooting activities will be greatly curtailed during the warmer months if one limits oneself to outdoor ranges. If one is involved in training and qualification of citizens, LEOs, or military, an indoor facility that can be cool, comfortable, and lead free is a business necessity.
 
"...lead is a much bigger problem than most of us realize..." It's not really. It takes a great deal of long term exposure to get poisoned.
Using lead free primers is not going help your buddy who has high blood lead levels. Neither will using lead free bullets.

He's taking his medical advice from his doctors, who have recommended complete elimination of ongoing exposure to lead. As an NRA Training Counselor, his livelihood depends on shooting, so lead free primers are a necessary part of following his doctors' instructions.

"...What powders work well with the available lead free primers..." Leaded or not doesn't matter. However, lead free primers, Russian made in particular, have proven to be less reliable with any powder.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ts-in-dept-of-defense-lead-free-primer-tests/

Yes, I read that. But the same research group has also shown that US lead free primers have also performed very poorly with regards to reliable ignition. See: https://arxiv.org/ftp/arxiv/papers/1410/1410.6390.pdf

All the lead free primers in that study (including those made by ATK/Federal) showed unacceptable rates of misfires and long ignition delays with the powders tested.

However, since those tests, it has become clear that Titegroup performs well with the lead free primers and testing has shown neither misfires nor ignition delays. If Titegroup works well with the DDNP primers (Russian and US), then odds are pretty good other powders also work well. The question is how to find which ones they are without testing every powder out there ourselves.
 
Chemical composition

Nitroglycerine in double based powders may help? I would avoid ball powders.

Look up the MSDS on different powders. Alliant, IMR, Hodgdon and others list them.

Check the burn rate charts. Pick a powder that has the fastest burn rate of the powders listed, for a given cartridge/bullet , may help? But the powders that gives closer to 100% case fill, may be better??

Walkalong has posted pistol powders that are " position sensitive" in some of his loads. Try a search.
 
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Yep, that's one way to address the problem. But the shooter in question has purchased a facility to use as an indoor range. With complete control of who shoots and what gets shot at that facility, there is no need to avoid indoor ranges. Finding lead free loads that work reliably can reduce his ongoing lead exposure to zero without completely avoiding indoor ranges.

If the site your friend purchased isn't already an indoor range, It would behoove him to put in the proper HVAC system, which depending on the volume to be ventilated, will run in the area of $1 million to $1.5 million to do properly. Then there is constant maintenance that has to be done, along with both environmental and OSHA compliance and testing. There are also associated costs with those.

The information seems to be coming out in small tidbits in this thread, but building an indoor range involves much more than a building and some targets. If he knows the costs going in, he'll be better prepared as they mount up. If it's already an indoor range, then he needs to have it inspected by a reputable company that deals with indoor ranges and compliance issues with the regulatory agencies. Here is the information he needs, whether it's a new range, or an existing range: https://www.nssf.org/understanding-...utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=ranges&utm_term=

He'll also need to have a good working relationship with an insurance company (not affiliated with the NRA) that specializes in shooting ranges. There are several that do that.

Hope this helps.

Fred
 
I would think that powders that have been manufactured for a long, long time would be easier to ignite. Before lead styphnate, primers didn't have quite as much pop, and so the powders of the day should be easier to light off. It's a theory.

"The Rifle in America" by Philip Sharpe would be a good place to find out what powders were around back then.
 
Berger.Fan222 wrote:
But since I'm bound by the practical limitations of the lead free primers I can actually BUY, I'm really trying to view the problem from the opposite viewpoint: "What powders work well with the available lead free primers?"

Yes, I was conscious of the need your friend faced to eliminate all lead exposure so that you needed powders that would work with lead free primers. There doesn't seem to have been such a list compiled.

The paper I linked to deal with the active ingredient in the primers available to you and noted the fairly significant number of instances in which primers using that active ingredient failed to ignite at all. So, unless the plan going forward is to bring back as many as 95% of your reloads from the range to be disassembled, reprimed and tried again, the only reaonable and practical answer to your question at this point would be, "None." Instead, you would need to rely on factory loaded ammunition using lead-free primers until such time as the component makers catch up and can provide reliable lead-free substitutes.
 
Berger.Fan222 wrote:
In most of the US south of I-10, shooting activities will be greatly curtailed during the warmer months if one limits oneself to outdoor ranges.

Huh?

I grew up in Boca Raton, well south of I-10. And when I was a teenager, the only ranges available to me were outdoor and I shot whenever I could get someone to take me, regardless of the heat.

Today, I would regard it the same way I regard my wife and I trips to Phoenix to celebrate our anniversary in August; you have all the amenities of a facility to handle a population half of whom aren't there.
 
Ironicaintit wrote:
I would think that powders that have been manufactured for a long, long time would be easier to ignite

Why?

Fulminate of mercury and lead azide may have had some characteristic metrics that were inferior to lead styphnate, but many characteristic metrics were also superior, so I don't agree with an overall characterization of those primer compounds having "less pop".
 
Traced my lead issues to the indoor range were I used to shoot.
Stopped going there things got better but I was on a no shooting until better routine for a while.
I have pretty much switched to plated or JHPs, bullets with no exposed lead at the base.

I had some lead free primers I got from BDS a while back to try.
Don't remember the brand, no issues with any of the powders I tried.
 
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Why?

Fulminate of mercury and lead azide may have had some characteristic metrics that were inferior to lead styphnate, but many characteristic metrics were also superior, so I don't agree with an overall characterization of those primer compounds having "less pop".

It was just a thought. I remember RCmodel saying once, and I know I read it in one of the two books I mentioned; competition riflemen back then bemoaned the "new" primers as being too hot. And so, I figured that powders manufactured prior to the advent of lead styphnate must also be easier to ignite than some of today's powders. Pure conjecture
 
The information seems to be coming out in small tidbits in this thread, but building an indoor range involves much more than a building and some targets. If he knows the costs going in, he'll be better prepared as they mount up. If it's already an indoor range, then he needs to have it inspected by a reputable company that deals with indoor ranges and compliance issues with the regulatory agencies. Here is the information he needs, whether it's a new range, or an existing range: https://www.nssf.org/understanding-...utm_medium=text&utm_campaign=ranges&utm_term=
While on the surface this seems like good advice, it does not do justice to the very real dangers essentially all indoor shooting ranges the general shooting public will have access to pose. I've been shooting at indoor ranges for 1-2 hours a week for the last 6 months. I also reload, but use manufactured FMJs and plated bullets, and observe careful protective and hygienic measures associated. I have been suffering from fatigue and an uncharacteristic degree of ineffectiveness in problem-solving situations amongst other symptoms lately, and after doing some google time on the topic of lead exposure at indoor ranges decided I needed to have my blood lead level (BLL) checked.

The results came back last week - 12 µg/dL. My doctor characterized this as 'slightly elevated', and proscribed stopping shooting indoors and retesting in a month. And understand, he only tested me because I researched the issue and insisted. His reaction was 'I've never had a patient say they've been shooting indoors and are concerned about lead'. Mine? I don't care; test it. Had I just told him my symptoms and waited for him to decide to test for lead, I would have died first. And this is a lot better than average doctor - he is retiring from his practice in a few months to take a teaching position at a large state university hospital.

What is an average blood lead level? Good question. It's been dropping steadily since the early 70's when the dangers of lead toxicity became known and regulatory measures reduced the average American's exposure. When I was born in 1970, 60 µg/dL was the point at which your doctor said your level was elevated. Now that level is 5 µg/dL. Considering the degree of the symptoms I've been suffering at 12, I suspect the BLL action level will continue to decline from the present 5.

So what makes it bad advice? It is because conforming to the regulatory measures doesn't do squat. OSHA's action level for BLL is 50-60 µg/dL, depending on the trade, a leftover of that 1970 view of average BLL. Also understand, OSHA (nor any other regulatory agency) does not inspect but a statistically insignificant number of shooting ranges in any time period, and those that are inspected are done so after a trail of consumer complaints and subsequent BLL test results from the employees above 50 µg/dL. At that point they find a laundry list of regulatory issues, at which point you find out that their enforcement measures are generally ineffective, and the intense exposure continues.

Shooting with lead-based primers indoors is dangerous. Your range may be one of the exceedingly rare ones that meets the applicable regulatory measures, but even so you can develop seriously elevated BLL. The main dangers are this - lead in the air and lead on surfaces. Even with great ventilation if all exposed surfaces in the range are not regularly cleansed the degree of lead on surfaces is great enough to easily become airborne, contaminating even a healthy and clean stream of ventilating air. Essentially all ranges fail on either ventilation or surface contamination (generally both). Sweep up your brass? You are going to put a bunch of surface lead into the air and breath it. You can wash it off your hands easily enough, but the airborne exposure is the killer.

I don't want to stop shooting indoors, as its handy you can do it year round. But it is dangerous, and shooters need to recognize the risks rather than finding a line of reasoning that says 'it's OK under these circumstances'. In reality it's only viable long-term if the lead contamination is reduced to near-elimination, and doing so is highly reliant on the exclusive use of lead-free priming compounds in addition to better ventilation and a higher degree of maintenance than all but a handful of commercial indoor ranges benefit from.

I recommend each and every shooter who utilizes indoor ranges more than a couple of times a year get their blood lead level tested. Everyone has to decide for themselves what an actionable BLL is, and balance that against other factors. But don't stop at trusting the regulatory agencies or their design recommendations and standards, as they are antiquated, inadequate and will not protect your health, even if they were routinely observed.

Here is a good resource for understanding blood lead levels, what 'average' is and the regulatory standards applied to lead exposure:
https://www.atsdr.cdc.gov/csem/csem.asp?csem=34&po=8

You can google plenty of information on the very real risks posed by the combination of lead-based priming compounds and indoor shooting ranges, as well as the depressing tales of woe from those who continued to wrack up lead in their blood until their levels were something concerning OSHA. As many of us have been shooting since childhood we are well versed with firearms safety protocols, but the time-worn 'just wash up afterwards' view of lead exposure is inadequate.
 
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I shoot regularly in 90 plus degree heat. I also work in it all the time. For those up North they shoot in cold weather, just part of life.

Good luck with the search for primers/powders that fill the need for you. I guess we haven''t had a lot of experience to share there. :)
 
I shoot regularly in 90 plus degree heat. I also work in it all the time. For those up North they shoot in cold weather, just part of life.
To be fair, death is also part of life, but most people avoid it nonetheless. I grew up in Indiana and lived in Phoenix, but I was tough then. After 25 years of diabetes I can't tolerate much in the way of extremes, and had to go back to school and start over career-wise to accommodate that fact. You are fortunate to be as able as you are; fortune does not shine so brightly on everyone.
 
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