What characteristics of smokeless propellant result in consistent handgun loads?

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labnoti

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I'm trying to understand what is needed from the powder for the most consistent velocity from handgun loads. What I mean by consistency in muzzle velocity is quantified by multiple samples of 5-shot ES < ~20fps and SD < ~10fps. I know this kind of consistency may have "no practical use," but its use for me is to help me understand how the characteristics of propellant affects the end result.

I believe it is common practice to "ladder" loads to discover consistency and accuracy of certain combinations of load characteristics during load development. Powder type and charge mass are just some of the variables we ladder, but they are the ones that are the topic of this thread. We've all seen some loads that have a very tight extreme spread and small standard deviation, and other loads that are wildly inconsistent. Consistency in velocity is not solely, maybe not even primarily a function of powder, but it is a factor. Because other factors related to the gun, chamber, barrel, the brass, sizing, crimp, the primer, bullets, and so on can be identified by isolating those variables, I want to discuss and understand how different powder qualities affect consistency.

One factor seems to be "ignitability" -- that is how easily the flakes or balls of powder are ignited. I understand that single base powders are made mostly of nitrocellulose, while double-base powders substitute nitroglycerin for up to 42% of the mass, with most of the remainder being made up of nitrocellulose. With only those ingredients, we would have only "fast burning" powders. Deterrents are added to cause the powders to burn and gasify more slowly, creating pressure more gradually. This allows a greater amount of energy to be delivered within a maximum peak pressure because the energy is delivered over a longer time. But deterrents could make the powder harder to ignite. We may need to use large size primers, "magnum" primers, or rifle primers to get the best combustion of these powders. I realize the distinctions of those different primers is more than just greater ignition -- primers are discussed in other threads. Some obvious examples of hard to ignite handgun powders are H110, IMR4227, and Lil'Gun. But ignitability does not seem to be a binary feature with options for "easy" and "hard." There seems to be a wide range if ignitability among different propellants and the volume and compression of the powder in the case seems to affect the ignitability as well as the pressure during combustion.

Ignitability does not seem to be as much of a problem in rifles with their long barrels. The long barrel gives the powder charge plenty of time to fully ignite when it is under pressure before the bullet base exits the muzzle and the pressure drops rapidly. Because of this, we can use much slower rifle powders. We know if we loaded a handgun cartridge with rifle powder and a bullet and ignited it in the chamber of a short barrel that a large portion of the charge would not complete combustion before the bullet base exited. The pressure would rapidly drop and some of the powder might not even burn at all. It seems that large volumes of slow powders in short barrels create the circumstances where lower "ignitability" creates inconsistent velocities.

I suppose a certain volume of powder -- the volume that a given case restricts us to -- contains so much energy from the NC and NG. The more of that volume that is taken up by deterrent, the less total energy it has. As we go to more and more heavily deterred, slower powders, we need larger and larger cases to hold the greater volume of deterrent without reducing the volume we're filling with NC and NG. So given a fixed case capacity for a particular cartridge, we can only go so slow in burn rate before we start losing energy that could be released within the pressure limit. As we approach this limit, a greater and greater portion of the charge is still combusting when the bullet base exits the muzzle. My conjecture, I don't know if its true, but I think that the smaller the portion of the total charge that finishes combustion before base exit, the greater the opportunity for random variability in the resulting pressure/time curve exists. The greatest consistency would result from a condition where 100% of combustion always completes before base exit. This would cost the opportunity of higher pressures at the time of base exit, and therefore lower overall velocity, but it would best assure consistency in the velocity.

Another factor in the consistency of velocity for handgun cartridges is "position sensitivity." On the other end of the spectrum from large, slow charges we have tiny charges of fast powders. These kinds of loads appear to have what it takes to deliver excellent consistency in velocity unless the case has excess volume. With small charges in large cases like .357 Magnum or .45 Long Colt, we could see differences in the resulting velocity when there is inconsistency with where the powder sits in the case -- against the primer, piled up behind the bullet, or spread out along the length of the case. Again, with short the barrels, it seems more likely we will see differences in the result based on differences in how combustion began. Long rifle barrels seem to even the results out.

Hodgdon advertises its "Titegroup" powder as having characteristics that make it consistent even with small charges in large cases. They claim it has less position sensitivity. They also claim it is more consistent with a variety of differences in primers used. I'm not sure what it is about Titegroup that makes this possible, but it seems to have something to do with "ignitability." Whatever it is, is it restricted to fast-burning powders? Is it restricted to low-volume/low-mass powder charges? Is it a characteristic derived from the portion of nitroglycerin used? I know it is not a result of high NG % alone. Lil'Gun is infamous for having a high NG content, but it is also heavily-deterred, ignites poorly with standard primers, and shows a lot of inconsistency especially in shorter handgun barrels. That brings up the question: because Titegroup is a double-base powder, it seems evident that some double-based powders can produce consistent velocities in handguns. Can single-base powders produce consistent velocities in handguns? The only one I have is IMR4227 and it doesn't seem consistent at all, but it is also exceptionally slow for a handgun powder.

Is there a limit to powder burn rate and barrel length where consistency in muzzle velocity drops away? Can we begin to quantify this limit?

To recap, I think variability in how combustion begins due to the ignitability of the propellent, variability in how combustion proceeds due to the position of the powder in the case, and variability on how combustion completes due to the burn rate and time to bullet base muzzle exit affect the variability of muzzle velocity.
 
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I'm trying to understand what is needed from the powder for the most consistent velocity from handgun loads.

... I want to discuss and understand how different powder qualities affect consistency.
There are several variables to how efficient and consistent powder burns to build chamber pressures to produce consistent muzzle velocities.

For one, consider effects of powder granule shape on burn rate and chamber pressure build (flake, ball, flattened ball, cut extruded, etc.) - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/powder-shape-and-burn-rate.852012/#post-11144185

Others are powder burn rate, flexibility of producing consistent chamber pressures even at lower powder charges, temperature sensitivity/insensitivity/reverse sensitivity, etc.

And for semi-auto pistol loads that slam forward powder charges when rounds are chambered, consideration for powders that are high enough case fill to eliminate air gap between flash hole and powder granules or powders that ignite consistently even with air gap.

I think bullseye match shooters have done much of this work and we should look at powders popular with bullseye matches - https://www.shootingtimes.com/edito...8#:~:text=The powders used by Bullseye,45 ACP.
 
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Is a "ladder test" really significant with handguns? It seems to me that there are too many variables; sight radius, distance to target, handgun "holding" ability vs long gun anilities.

It seems to me group size is more a measure of the shooters ability 1st, then ppwder charge to match sight and POI.
 
What pressure you are running at makes a huge difference in ES/SD numbers, so at one pressure powder X may look good while at another pressure powder Y might look good.

Handgun loads can have large ES/SD numbers and still shoot great at close range, which is what 99% of shooters do with them.
 
Is a "ladder test" really significant with handguns? It seems to me that there are too many variables; sight radius, distance to target, handgun "holding" ability vs long gun anilities.

It seems to me group size is more a measure of the shooters ability 1st, then ppwder charge to match sight and POI.

I agree, and while we can use a Ransom Rest or other means to isolate some of those variables, what I'm focused on rather than group-size is the consistency of the velocity. As I wrote earlier, there may be no practical purpose to small ES/SD numbers, but if we isolate the variability to the powder, we can learn something about powder.
 
What pressure you are running at makes a huge difference in ES/SD numbers, so at one pressure powder X may look good while at another pressure powder Y might look good.

Handgun loads can have large ES/SD numbers and still shoot great at close range, which is what 99% of shooters do with them.

Why does pressure effect the ES/SD from powder to powder? I speculated that different powders like powder X and powder Y have different levels of ignitability and that can certainly vary with pressure. Using the terminology from the VV article LiveLife posted, we might say that powder X ignites and exhibits a digressive burn rate at low pressures, whereas powder Y might be have a progressive burn rate at that pressure. Is this what will effect the low ES/SD?

"In general, it can be said that powder that burns progressively achieves a desired muzzle velocity at lower maximum pressure than a powder that burns neutrally, not to mention a degressive powder. As grain size increases, the maximum pressure moves towards the muzzle, also increasing muzzle blast."

So obviously we have to think of burn rate not as a constant, but as something that can increase, stay constant, or decrease over the course of combustion time and I do think that can vary based on the kind of pressures it's happening under. How does this affect consistency or is consistency affected by this? The progressive combustion gets us the target velocity at lower peak pressure with maximum pressure "moving towards the muzzle" (this can also be thought of in terms of time rather than the position along the barrel), but does that create greater variability in things like muzzle pressure? It seems like a digressive burn would be the best for consistency -- as time goes forward, the variability in burn becomes decreasingly significant. The reason I think variability at the beginning is better for consistency than variability toward the end is because we run out of barrel and time. The more barrel and time we have after variations in burn, the more smoothed-out the result is.

Bullseye competition powders -- according to Shooting Times are VihtaVuori N310 and N320; Alliant Bullseye; Hodgdon 700-X, Clays, and Titegroup; and Winchester Super Target (WST) and 231. Why only fast powders? We could say because bullseye shooters don't need higher velocities, or bullseye shooters don't always shoot magnums, but still, why not Blue Dot, or BE-86, CFE Pistol, AutoComp, N350 or even WSF or Power Pistol?
 
I'm focused on rather than group-size is the consistency of the velocity.

As I wrote earlier, there may be no practical purpose to small ES/SD numbers, but if we isolate the variability to the powder, we can learn something about powder.
I did the same as I approached retirement but I soon realized there are variables to reloading but also to shooting. And some of these variables can overshadow/mask lesser effects from variables we are working/focused on so I worked to identify these variables to eliminate them or minimize when I could not eliminate - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...s-and-discussions.778197/page-9#post-10940381

So as many members posted in the past, to really see the effects of reloading variables to determine whether ES/SD of particular powder correlates to accuracy on target, you first need a shooting platform that doesn't have variables that can taint the reloading variables testing and I have recently fielded scoped pistol and scoped pistol caliber carbines to reduce shooting variables with some success.

IME, there are reloading variables that could significantly shadow testing/chrono data such as powder metering and bullet setback so I have worked to reduce my powder charge variance to less than .05 gr and hand weigh powders that are harder to meter.

And of course, many members post that sometimes higher ES/SD loads can produce smaller groups so this is one more myth busting item I am working towards.
 
Bullseye competition powders -- according to Shooting Times are VihtaVuori N310 and N320; Alliant Bullseye; Hodgdon 700-X, Clays, and Titegroup; and Winchester Super Target (WST) and 231. Why only fast powders? We could say because bullseye shooters don't need higher velocities, or bullseye shooters don't always shoot magnums, but still, why not Blue Dot, or BE-86, CFE Pistol, AutoComp, N350 or even WSF or Power Pistol?

I think the reason is, as you noted, they don't need higher speeds, and that recoil matters. If you're shooting a light bullet at low speed, such as a 185 grain bullet at 770 fps, a fast burning powder generally uses less weight than a slow burning powder, so it produces less recoil. If you hang out at the Bullseye forum, they often comment on recoil. They want to keep recoil as low as possible for the same reason we do, it makes us flinch. They are willing to accept a little more recoil for the 50 yard line if it improves the round's accuracy, but will accept an accuracy loss at the 25 yard line because the 10 ring is a little larger and they don't need the ultimate accuracy there for that reason. So they use different charge weights for the different distances, and even different bullets.

Slower powders can produce excellent accuracy in the 45. They can even do so at very fast speed. But they produce more recoil and we're more likely to flinch. Bullseye shooters can't flinch - if they do their score goes to hell. Recoil matters in that sport.
 
And of course, many members post that sometimes higher ES/SD loads can produce smaller groups so this is one more myth busting item I am working towards.

Testing shows that there is no clear correlation between ES/SD and accuracy with the usual handgun at 25 yards. That was tested at the link below. There must be other factors that influence accuracy more than the velocity spread issue. It might be an issue for precision gun and at greater distances, but that article noted that, "Even the Army Marksmanship Unit recognizes that, “Extremely uniform velocities alone are ‘not’ a reliable predictor of accuracy!”"

https://americanhandgunner.com/handguns/exclusive-consistent-velocity-accuracy/
 
Bullseye competition powders -- according to Shooting Times are VihtaVuori N310 and N320; Alliant Bullseye; Hodgdon 700-X, Clays, and Titegroup; and Winchester Super Target (WST) and 231. Why only fast powders? We could say because bullseye shooters don't need higher velocities, or bullseye shooters don't always shoot magnums, but still, why not Blue Dot, or BE-86, CFE Pistol, AutoComp, N350 or even WSF or Power Pistol?
My guess is added recoil.

Edit: I see @fxvr5 already covered that.
 
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