PowerPistol causes excessive battering in .45acp 1911's?

[DHart]

I read something on a forum somewhere recently that just didn't sit quite right with me, but perhaps I'm missing something. I forget where I read it, but the writer made a statement something to the effect that PowerPistol is such a "hot" powder that one should use shok-buffs in a 1911 if you load with this powder.

What seemed wrong to me was that if the ammo was loaded to the same velocity for the same bullet weight as another (less "potent") powder in a different loading, wouldn't the wear on the gun be the same?

Or could it be that the writer meant that PowerPistol burns quicker than "typical" .45 acp powders and creates more sudden slide movement... I don't know... I'm just grasping at straws here trying to understand why he would state that PowerPistol might be cause more slide battering issues in a .45 than other powders.

I don't use shok-buffs and I was planning to begin reloading my .45 acp cases with PowerPistol, in the neighborhood of 7.6 gr., pushing 230 gr. Golden Saber bullets to something like 880-900 fps. Would this PowerPistol loading be any more punishing on my 1911's than a different powder which pushes the same bullet at the same speed?

What are the most preferred powders use in reloading for .45 acp?

 

[stans]

Power Pistol powder is rated as just a wee bit slower than Unique. The only time Unique causes battering is when cases are overloaded or the gun is under sprung, so I cannot see how a powder that is even slower can cause battering unless the gun is set up wrong or the rounds are exceeding SAAMI pressure specs. Even with Bullseye, I cannot see battering being a problem unless the gun is set up wrong or the cases are overloaded.

 

[HSMITH]

Power Pistol will generate velocities well over standard hardball loads without excessive pressures. Recoil is quite a bit stiffer as well in the top loads, and could batter the gun if used in quantity. This would be especially true if the gun was not quite built right, you could thrash one in a hurry. I use a buffer in my guns when I run the stout ammo, it doesn't affect cycling and it won't hurt anything.

 

[Peter M. Eick]

Not in 45acp, but I found that in 9mm, power pistol can really crank the velocities distinctly faster then would be normal and via pressure ring measurement (read guessing) it would be a "normal pressured" round.

I ended up DOWNLOADING my power pistol 9mm from the book max loads to get the velocity that was SAAMI normal for the round. This was particularly true in 115 grn and 124 grn FMJ's.

My experience was that I was beating the tar out of my Sig 210's and I would rather download to standard velocity then beat up the gun. With the 210's it is hard to get non-standard spring weights, so I chose the practical solution.

 

[DHart]

It seems folks have had good experiences with Universal Clays, Unique, 231, and BlueDot. I think I'll try about 7.2 gr. of PowerPistol and work my way up to 875 fps (factory Rem 230 gr. Golden Saber velocity). I don't expect that will be an overly hot load. I do tend to use 17# recoil springs and 11# mag springs in my 1911's to stand up to the warmer street loads, so I'm guessing I should be ok at 875 fps with the 230 Golden Sabers.

I'll probably pick up some Universal Clays and 231 as well to try those.

I'd like to find a fairly clean burning, low flash, granular (meters well) powder that can comfortably give me the 875 fps with the 230 gr JHP. Don't mind if the charge is on the larger side... makes it easier to see my powder in the cases and ensure good ignition at different attitudes.

 

[taliv]

i'm testing solo 1250 next week. it's supposedly very cheap and clean burning, and it's definitely much cheaper than the VV N320 i'm shooting now.

 

[DHart]

I'm finding that there is a significant difference in the efficiency of 230 gr. Gold Dots vs. 230 gr. Golden Sabers... the same powder load gives a significantly slower velocity with Golden Sabers than the Gold Dots... I would imagine that's because the jacket on the GS is brass (or bronze) and the jacket on the GD is softer copper. I wonder what other implications there are for this difference.

AA #5 8.7 gr. gives:

881 fps w/GS 16,700 psi
929 fps w/GD 20,200 psi

So I'm realizing that I can't use data for generic JHP's to apply to Golden Sabers. Dang. Perhaps I could reasonably estimate that generic JHP velocities given in reloading books should be reduced by about 5% for GS bullets. Anyone else dealt with this before?

 

[MoNsTeR]

It's the velocities, not the powder. Load anything hot and it'll beat up on you. Power Pistol just makes it easier, as amazingly pressure-efficient as it is.

 

[Kamicosmos]

wow....7.2 grains eh?

I am running 6.4 and getting about 750 fps with a 230 grainer.

Lyman 48th shows a max load of 7.2 for a 230 grain bullet @ 858. And I consider Lyman to be a bit on the warm side of loading data, Speer runs much cooler. I only have Speer 12. Which doesn't show Power Pistol. Lee 2n ed also shows the same data as Lyman.

 

[grendelbane]

7.6 grains of Power Pistol is just slightly north of the maximum that Alliant recommends for a +P loading.

I have fired 7.5 grains quite a bit in my 625, and really like it.

I do not believe that Power Pistol would be any more abusive than any other powder, when loaded to the same velocity. It might actually be less abusive, as it manages to reach high velocities with low pressures.

Still, the higher the velocity of the bullet, the higher the velocity of the slide. Hotter loads increase wear, their is no free lunch.

Power Pistol is an excellent powder if velocity is your main requirement.

 

[DHart]

There is quite a bit of variation in recommended loadings from the different sources. The company names below are the sources of the data shown:

> > > > PowerPistol .45acp < < < <
Hornady 5" bbl 230 gr. XTP/JHP 7.6 max = 900 fps
Speer 4.4" bbl 230 gr. GD JHP 7.4 max = 881 fps
Sierra 5" bbl 230 gr. JHP 7.3 max = 900 fps
Alliant 5" bbl 230 gr. JHP 7.2 max = 895 fps
Lyman 5" bbl 230 gr. FMJ 7.2 max = 858 fps

I get the impression that Lyman's loads are typically on the conservative side, but I could be wrong.

 

[HSMITH]

DHart, if your gun is well made and in good condition you still have the +P level loads available too, they go from the stout loads you list to 'dayyyum' levels.

I would not recommend going outside the listed data, my own experimentation in much higher pressure cartridges like the 9mm and 40 have shown Power Pistol to be very predictable in pressure increases with increases in charge weight and/or decreases in OAL though. In other words this isn't a powder that is likely to surprise you after a small change in loading.

I have shot quite a few at 7.5 in a ramped barrel Para with 230 FMJ bullets, IMO if you want more you need a more powerful chambering, they are STOUT. Downright nasty in an officers model too. In MY guns they are plenty safe, as always work up and keep an eye on the pressure signs.

 

[DHart]

HSmith... thanks... I'll probably start at about 7 and chronograph it just to see where I'm at with Golden Saber 230 grl bullets and my Colts. Then go from there. I think I'd be quite happy with 850 fps and the 230 gr. Golden Saber.

 

[zeke]

DHart-The max diameter bearing surface on the Rem 230 GS, is significantly shorter than a standard 230 gn bullet. Am guessing it generated less pressure , with same powder charge. Gold Dots seem to generate more pressure than other standard jacketed bullets. Am also quessing steady diet of hot loads will eventualy batter most pistols. All my 5 inchers have Wilson shock buffers in em, have not had any problems.

Do not have any direct experience with Power Pistol yet, but am reading it produces lot of flash. VVN350 is very low flash, at 230 gn max velocities. Ramshot is listing loads with Enforcer powder that generate the highest standard pressure 230 gn 45 acp velocitys seen yet. The pressure a barrel can withstand, may not indicate of the force a pistol can withstand.

Have tried the 230 gn GS, and always test for bullet setback by loading non-charged round, and letting slide load it from rear locked position. From limited experience with this bullet, ya might want to check for setback. Had better luck with it using Lee undersize die and heavy Lee factory crimp. For good accuracy, it appears to like being seated at a shorter COL.

While certainly have not tried all the combinations for 230 grain bullets, am developing a preference for 230 gn Hornady xtp with uniqe or VV-N350.

 

[Khornet]

Setback

I too have noticed setback with 230 gr Golden Saber. Only a couple of rounds, after repeated rechambering. I now examine 'em all. Aside from that, they work well with Accurate #5 in my Para.

 

[ClarkEMyers]

IIRC Earl Naramore in "Principles and Practice..."

IIRC Earl Naramore in "Principles and Practice..." suggested using the fastest powder to produce the desired velocity was easiest on the 1911. Was he correct?

Has better understanding changed his analysis?

My understanding - I could easily be wrong; he could have been superseded - of Naramore's point was that a higher quicker pressure peak was followed by more time/distance for the recoil spring to damp the slide movement thus the slide would impact with more energy transferred to the spring and less to the frame.

Any thoughts?

 

[Werewolf]

I'm a fan of accurate #5 myself. 8.3 gr of it under a 230gr FMJ or XTP and a fed 150 primer is my most accurate load for my S&W 1911 Target. For my Sig P220 5.5gr HP38 under a 230 gr FMJ or XTP is best. Both have OAL of 1.2".

I've tried both loads at increased OAL's from 1.2 to 1.26 in .01 increments. For what ever reason the 1.2 length works the best for me in both of my .45's.

 

[Powderman]

I don't use shok-buffs and I was planning to begin reloading my .45 acp cases with PowerPistol, in the neighborhood of 7.6 gr., pushing 230 gr. Golden Saber bullets to something like 880-900 fps.

Dude, try with a start load of 6.2. Work up from there.

I loaded 230 grain ball with 6.5 Power Pistol. You want the "Dayyyyum!!!" factor? Well, there it is!!

Oh yes, 6.5 will make you a believer in recoil--trust me!

Believe me, when they say Power Pistol, they mean every word. Trust me on this one.

 

[DHart]

Powderman... thanks for the advice. I only want to clone the factory Golden Saber performance... about 875 fps with the 230 gr. Golden Saber. Do you have any idea how many gr. of PowerPistol will achieve that? Again, I'm not trying to build a +P, heavy recoil load, just a clone of the factory load.