POWs describe jammed M16's

[Steve Smith]

BHP9, I also shoot at a minimum 3000 rounds in Highpower competiton every year, and I will say that my findings are opposite of yours. I am in the dry, hot, and dusty Southwest and have not fired many matches in the rain. Here the AR15 runs EXCEPTIONALLY well with just a light coat of oil. I don't see the massive amount of failures that you say you see. I see firing lines filled with AR15s and they are running like swiss timepieces.

I will agree that the .223 is not the fighing caliber that it should be, and a 7mm would be a better choice.


Question, you say,

I am a national match shooter

Exactly what do you mean by that? Do you only shoot at the Nationals, or do you only shoot "National Match Courses" meaning a 50 round match? Either way, there is a lot more to Highpower than just the National Match Course course of fire. The 80 shot match is called a Regional Match Course and of course there are CMP Excellence in Competition matches as well.

 

[BHP9]

Exactly what do you mean by that? Do you only shoot at the Nationals, or do you only shoot "National Match Courses" meaning a 50 round match? Either way, there is a lot more to Highpower than just the National Match Course course of fire. The 80 shot match is called a Regional Match Course and of course there are CMP Excellence in Competition matches as well.

We shoot the 80 shot course and have a long range 60 shot match and also a rattle battle during the course of the summer.

 

[JShirley]

As little as I like the system, I would still hesitate to describe the M16 family as extremely troublesome.

"If the weapon is not literally soaking in a good lube"

? Overlubing any weapon is a good way to attract debris. It can also contribute to malfunctions such as slamfires. Why does your advice appear to be contrary to all the other experienced shooters I know?

John

 

[444]

I recently fired approx. 4 thousand rounds in one month through one of my Bushmasters, about 1800 rounds of it at Gunsite. I experienced two malfuntions. One was a bad round of ammo and the bullet came out of the case, in the gun, filling the action with unburnt powder. The gun didn't run after that until I cleaned it. The other was a double feed that was no big deal because part of the couse taught me how to clear a double feed.

I will tell you that the bolt was basically soaking in lube. The way I had the rifle lubed wouldn't have worked under combat conditions.

 

[Dannyboy]

In my time in the Army, I shot the M16 in the rain and snow of Germany, in the mud and dust of TX/OK, and in the deserts of White Sands, NM and Kuwait. The only problems I ever had were either ammo or magazine problems. Not including blanks, of course. I never had any luck with those.

 

[Powderman]

I definitely feel the pain concerning blanks.

I would much rather fire 100 rounds of ball ammunition through an M16, before I would fire 10 blanks.

Besides, there is just something wrong with a system where you have to completely plug the barrel to fire blanks.

With that in mind, I also agree with an earlier poster concerning the DGI operating system. It is just plain dirty. It does tend to foul the weapon quickly if it is not kept clean.

My other military gas guns--M1 and M1A/M14--don't have that problem.

I recently took my M1A and the Garand down to Arizona for a visit. I stayed outdoors on my friend's property near Kingman.

After about 200 rounds through each one, it was a simple matter to clean. Wipe off the op rods, wipe down the gas piston in the M1A, wipe off bolt and bolt face in both, and bore snake the barrel. Done deal!

The weapons weren't even that dirty.

My AR, on the other hand, gets really filthy after 100 rounds of ball. I must pay special attention to the bolt and carrier group; and I always manage to harvest a ton of crud.

 

[EchoSixMike]

I shoot the NRA high power with the AR, some people think I do it pretty well('91 winner:Minuteman Trophy,'97 winner:Leatherneck Trophy, '98 winner:Soldier of Marathon Trophy, some local stuff, Distinguished, etc etc). I shoot about 3K rds per year through the service rifle for real and maybe 2-5K more though other AR platforms for the USMC, practice, etc, and with my current rifle I have never had a stoppage or jam that was not the cause of either operator error(seating mag too hard causing top rd to pop free) or ammo(head seperations mainly, too many reloads on a case) I have shot two barrels out on this rifle and I should get a third on it soonest. I usually go about 9K rds on the barrel before they go Tango Unifrom.

I have seen all sorts of problems on the range with the AR, most due to people who either suck at reloading, who use hack gunsmithes, or who play about with the gimmick de jour trying to buy skill and experience. IT DOESN'T WORK!!!! The top guys use guns that work, don't mess about with gimmicks and just shoot more. They don't have problems.

I have been in the Marines for 10 years now. I have been a gunner on the M2, M60E3, M249, M240G and some other stuff. They will all work, and work well, if the gunner and crew do their jobs. There are a FEW guns out there that have been beat to death, but the vast majority will work fine with proper user procedure.

I have killed M60E3's by firing until the nearly melted. They kept going until you could see the pressure waves from the bullets going down the glowing barrels. Do you think this is adequate?

I have fired M16A2's until the cases siezed in the chambers. I have warped recievers(according to the armorer) and the guns still went bang. This was firing over 600 rds in less than 25 minutes supporting a simulated bunker assault. Is this adequate?

I have fired M16A2's in the deserts of Nevada for ten days(+/- 1000 rds) without doing more than basic cleaning and dusting out mags and not had problems.

I hate the M9 and they suck(and you will soon see this reported back from Iraq AGAIN), but most troops are not issued a sidearm and so that is why these folks who were ambushed did not transition to them when their M16A2's jammed(if in fact that actually happened).

Ammo comes issued in 180rd bandoleers. 6-30rd clusters of three 10rd stripper clips and one speed loader per bando.

IMO (and it is an uninformed opinion based purely on speculation) the 507th guys were slack in their maintainance and this resulted in the problems reported. IF the problems reported actually happened.

Jeff, they have any good ranges down by you? I need to do a road trip and I want to show off my new toy(M40A1 clone) and talk with some real folks who know what they're talking about. You interested in BS'ing with a jarhead for a day? S/F...Ken M

 

[Salpalinja]

So what do you consider to be adequate accuracy for assault/battle rifle?? I think 3-4 MOA is more than enough with iron sights. The assault rifles I have shot (Valmet/sako) could shoot approx. 1 MOA groups from bench.

 

[Cannon7mm]

Your absolutely right...A pull of the trigger fixes the condom and the dust cover "cover". In fact, if you actually place your AR15/M16 inside a pair of pantyhose/nylons and operate the weapon effectively...A smart NCO would have suggested this to the troops, given that their weapons would not be used frequently and would be subject to a lot of abuse, dirt and sand while transversing the supply lines...

If you don't believe me ... try it... it works like a charm...

 

[NevadaPistolero]

M16 Sucks

Why is it always operator negligence or they didnt spend 12 hours a day cleaning their weapons. Some people cant accept the fact the m16 just isnt in the ball park. I know yours works fine....yeah right. Combat situations are when its needed most and they have let a lot of people down. Throw an Ak47 in the dirt-dust-mud and keep on firing...not an M16. Ok so flame me now. I have owned 3 and not one ever functioned like it should...that made me an AK man forever.

 

[Marko Kloos]

I've seen more jammed AKs than AR-15s so far. Supposedly, the AR has inferior reliability, but I have never had a failure of any kind in mine. My roomie's Romak and her Norinco pre-ban AK have both had failures to feed on two different occasions. Granted, I haven't owned a lot of ARs yet, but that shows to me that there is no infallible technology.

Case in point: today, we shot a 16" AR, a 1911 in .38 Super, and a Smith & Wesson Model 65. The only failure today was with the S&W revolver (binding up the cylinder with hot magnum loads), while the supposedly reliability-challenged 1911 and AR-15 never missed a beat.

 

[444]

I posted this again in another related thread.

I just finished a four day rifle course The course was held in the desert. No grass, no pavement, it was just a graded off piece of desert. The last two days we had high winds. The inside of my pickup is covered in dust from the blowing dirt. During the course, we were required to rapidly assume various shooting positions; for example we were required to drop into the prone position and put one shot into the vitals of a silhouette at 200 yards within 6.9 seconds. We did this over and over and over at various ranges. Obviously when you hit the dirt, you hands are covered with dirt which you then use to manipulate the rifle. This combined with the dirt clouds caused by all the students doing this at once left my AR completely covered in dust and dirt. My AR is now light brown colored from muzzle to buttplate. In addition, because this was a formal course, we were required to spend all the time we were not actually firing the weapon with the mag out and the dust cover open so the instructors could tell at a glance that our weapon was unloaded. I ended up firing something over 600 rounds without a single malfunction (other than those purposely induced for training on clearing malfunctions). Not one. I guarentee that very few civilians will ever get an AR this dirty certainly not those of you who don't even own one, or those of you who own one that you never shoot.
I am certainly glad that I rely on my own experience rather than the crap I read on-line.




Oh, and I left out one thing. I was shooting Wolf ammo which is the victim of even more internet BS. Using this dirty rifle and Wolf ammo enabled me to put every shot in the vitals at 200 yards. I also managed to hit 7 out of 8 shots on a steel half-silhouette at 400 yards from the prone position in these winds. Try that with your AK.

 

[Bostonterrier97]

The dust/sand particles are smaller in the Persian Gulf region than they are in the North American Southwest.

Hence the noted differences in observations on the AR15's reliability.

Both sides of the camp are ignoring important physical factors which come into play when determining the reliability of rifles.

The AR15 proponents are a bit like the British MOD defending the Enfield L85 (SA80) Bullpup Assault Rifle. When these proponents encounter a jammed rifle their immediate reaction is to say that the soldier or shooter should clean their rifle.


The AR15 naysayers are ignoring empirical evidence that under some conditions the AR15 will function well.
For these people there are no conditions in which the AR15 will function satisfactorily.

The extreme cases

Which is more reliable, AK47 or AR15?
Answer: AK47

Which is more accurate?
Answer: AR15

A middle ground

What is a good compromise in terms of Accuracy and Reliability?
AR180, Robinson M96 (a semi auto version of the stoner 63), M1A, FAL

 

[curt]

I've seen more jammed AKs than AR-15s so far. Supposedly, the AR has inferior reliability, but I have never had a failure of any kind in mine.

My experience as well. There you have it two cases where AKs function worse than ARs, that should settle it once and for all :banghead:

When it comes to personal anecdotes i'll take the experience of people who have actually seen the elephant. I've read numerous posts, here and elsewhere, by people who clearly have had to depend on their weapon and they have no problem with the AR. I've read numerous posts by people who have never done more than punch paper on an army or civilian range, who not only condemn it but seem to have a real bias going on. I know who i listen to.