Practice Distances for Concealed Carry Pistol

[Hangingrock]

50 & 25 Yards I've shot enough Bulls Eye to fill 55Gal drums with the empties. Today I shoot basically at 10Yds and under on my own range. That I believe the distances to be more realistic for self-defense situations that may arise. We present the weapon (Our EDC) and we do so with movement lateral, oblique, and or retreat. The targets employed standard IDPA singular and or multiple. We do this with our previously mentioned EDC and our standard holster from the concealed carry position with clothing that we normally wear day to day.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

15 yards is 3 car lengths. You can be disabled on the side of a road with a flat tire or engine trouble. You're vulnerable to being robbed (or raped if you're a woman) and criminals know it. They pull up and park about a car's length in front or behind you = 15 yards.

Most street crime encounters are 3-5 yards.

"A gunfight is more like a fistfight than a tactical nuclear exchange." -- John Farnam

 

[bearcreek]

It may be part of their approved curriculum

It may be. Given that the OP described the people saying this as "various people", I kinda doubt it though.

--and there is a basis for saying that using deadly force against a person armed with a contact weapon who is too far away would put one in a cage for some years.

I agree. Again, I think the OP was talking about practicing at longer than 10 yards. Have to wait to hear from him/her I suppose.

When I see people shooting slowly at a target seven yards away, I remember doing that myself, and I am reminded that while some longer range practice is okay, one would be wiser to prioritize rapid fire at a much closer distance.

Definitely agree on this one. I think a lot of it, honestly, is just that a lot of pistol ranges are set up for around 7 yards and so people just go with it and don't think much about it. Since most people don't get any decent training, it never crosses their minds.

 

[Fine Figure of a Man]

or raped if you're a woman

Or a man.

 

[orionengnr]

Most of my range time in the last 15 years (since getting my CHL) has been spent concentrating on 25 feet or so.
I figured that most social encounters would occur at this distance or less.

Very recently I have started trying to shoot at 75 feet (25 yards, the max at my indoor range).
If I take my time, I can shoot pretty well at this distance. By that I mean, 3 to 6 inches for 5 rounds with a variety of my carry pistols. initially, I was pretty happy with that outcome.

However, I'm not sure that 'taking my time" is realistic in a life threatening scenario. Probably 2-3 seconds between shots.

So my "taking my time" shots may be meaningless, or more importantly, suicidal.

I guess it all comes down to how far, how many adversaries, and how good they are.

 

[KCAce]

OP...my 2 cents...we should drill at the distances you can imagine bringing your EDC into action. I would like to confirm typical defensive shooting distances, but my view is there are 3 ‘general’ distances:
3-4’, where risk of having your piece grabbed from you is a risk,
12-15’, typical of inside a room, a street or parking lot scenario, and
20+ yards, street or other public venue scenario.

Of course “stuff” might happen between the ranges shown but this works for me for deciding what drills to use.
In all cases time and accuracy are factors so I echo others recommendation you get a timer to set goals and track progress. I use one and it keeps me honest. Also, as others said, SAFETY is the first priority especially since these drills should start from your holster. So, for the 3 distances above, the drills I use are:
At 5’, draw EDC and shoot either 2 or 3 shot into center mass (silhouette target or a full size paper plate) for time. Keep shooting hand close to body. Repeat several times.
For middle distances where there’s low risk of gun being grabbed - the 4 fives drill...from holster or low ready, shoot 5 shots at 5 yards at 5” circle target in 5 seconds. Start with a 22...this is a tough drill. I did this drill a LOT before I was successful.
Longer distances (15-25 yards) I simply draw my EDC and shoot 1 shot into the head of a silhouette target (or full size paper plate), in 3 seconds max. Repeat at least 20x.

good luck and safe shooting! Hope this helps. kcace

 

[derek45]

Practice up close, and distance

 

[DT Guy]

Nobody knows how far your potential attacker may be from you when it all goes pear shaped-and don't forget that just because you have a hangun doesn't mean they will also only have a handgun. Your attacker may have a carbine or shotgun, with an effective range quite a bit more than your handgun's.

To be able to effectively engage an attacker, one critical aspect of your training and practice is to determine your actual capabilities with the firearm you're carrying. It's what let's you know, for instance, you can usually make a headshot at 25 yards, usually make a body shot at 50 and sometimes make a body shot at 100. Knowing the shots you can and cannot make is critical to determining how you'll act under attack.

Larry

 

[Old Dog]

Jeff White's post was a good one. We've basically gone down to only 5 rounds at the 25-yard-line (on the 50-round qual course); incorporating movement, emergency reloads and weak-hand shooting at the 3, 5, 7 and 10 yard lines is most of the course, with speed and tactical reloads at the 15.

As for practicing at 25 yards hurting you in court, I put that in the same category as the advice they used to give police officers about not shooting well on qualification because an attorney can use your score against you in court if he thinks your shooting wasn't perfect.......gunfight urban legend.

Yeah, uh, no. Whenever I have an officer tell me he purposely didn't clean the "easy" qual course for this reason, I know it's really an excuse (especially if he threw a shot or two at a closer range).

But you absolutely have to train at longer distances. At least 25 yards. You cannot develop the fine accuracy skills if you never shoot past seven or ten yards.

 

[Kleanbore]

I occurs to me that the new student studying for CCW will likely be overwhelmed, and perhaps initially confused, by all of the new things to learn. I know I was.

Let's go back over the bidding, and break it down into pieces.

They generally advise against shooting a defensive carry pistol further than 10 yards or so.

If they are referring to practice, I disagree---one may have to shoot at longer stances.

However, it is much more likely that a a violent attack requiring the use of deadly defensive force will occur at a much closer distance, and it is therefore prudent to invest most of one's time developing the skills needed for more likely scenarios.

I think if I can hit at 25, then closer should be easier...

That sounds reasonable, but....

Defending against a close-quarters attack will require drawing and shooting extremely quickly; firing very rapidly, to achieve multiple hits while there is time to do so; and a level of precision sufficient only to hit an area perhaps as large as the upper chest.

Think in terms of drawing in a second and a half and firing at a rate of several shots per second.

That will put an attacker charging from seven yards--the proverbial "Tueller distance" (discussed in the links mentioned below) extremely close to you before you can shoot.

The skills needed to do that differ markedly from those needed for more precise shooting at a greater distance.

They say shooting an assailant further will get you into trouble.

To address that, one needs to understand when deadly defensive force is justified, and when it is not.

I suggest searching for posts by Frank Ettin containing the kew words Lisa Steele, and reading all of the posted links.

Should you want to discuss it further, post in ST&T.

I also think this advice comes from an assumption that one isn't dealing with an assailant armed with a firearm.

That is relevant to the issue. MS Steele addresses that.

It has to do with the distance at which an attacker can do harm with a contact weapon.

That distance is arms' length. But woe be the defender who lets an attacker get that close.

That's where the "Tueller distance" of seven yards come into play. It has to do with when drawing is necessary before it is too late, and not with a distance at which to practice shooting.

I cannot overemphasize the importance of realistic defensive training.

I hope you find this helpful.

Good luck!

 

[psyopspec]

Not practicing beyond 10 yards sounds great, as long as you can choreograph your gunfight to be inside that distance. Although, if you can pre-plan to that level it's probably best to avoid the event entirely.

For me, I like having a varied skillset that includes practicing some shots at longer distances.

 

[fastbolt]

During my time in LE I saw revolvers replaced with pistols; saw training and qual courses-of-fire shrink in distance; and saw bullseye training mostly disappear.

In my initial academy firearms class we were still expected to be able to shoot our revolvers out to 50yds. Ditto in the firearms instructor class I attended several years later, and then again in the firearms instructor update I attended a few years before my retirement. The initial firearms instructor class and the update also required a basic bullseye course be passed, so basic skillset for handgun accuracy could be assessed. (The instructor update class was supposed to be a class for existing firearms instructors, who had already passed a basic instructor class and who had been working as instructors for their respective agencies, so it ought not have been a difficult skills assessment test, but many of the younger instructors had to try a few times in order to pass it.)

Now, during all those years I watched the "regular" qual courses-of-fire shrink down to where the furthest distance was 10-11yds and the closest was 1yd.

There was also a time when one qual course-of-fire included a standard 25yd bullseye being placed at a short 10yds, and seeing some younger shooters freak out when they realized they had to score a minimum number of hits in the black bull as part of that course-of-fire.

Eventually the distances gradually increased again, moving out to 15yds and then out to 20 & 25yds (with the closest at 3yds). Take a look at the 2019 revised FBI Handgun Qual Course, as it's somewhat reflective of what we were seeing come back in general LE in the last 10-15 years.
https://www.usacarry.com/2019-fbi-handgun-qualification/

Now, all of the training/qual work was for proficiency, as well as the development and periodic assessment of it. The issues involved in determining the reasonable, appropriate and lawful use of deadly force at any distance was another topic of training and legal updates.

Even back when our qual courses were done at the relatively shorter 3-10yds, I used to wait until the handgun range was empty and do drills against targets out to 25-50yds, or move over to the rifle/shotgun range and work on threat targets at 25, 35 & 50 yds. For a few years I occasionally used my issued compact pistol to run the patrol rifle qual course. It was a 90% minimum passing course-of-fire that had ranges of 100, 75, 50, 35, 25 & 10yds, although we eventually dropped the 100yd distance and put those rounds back into some more challenging parts of the other distances (barricade, movement, etc). Part of the reason I decided to sometimes use a compact pistol to run the rifle course is I wanted to show some of our folks that someone with a handgun could still be a threat for accurate fire out at 100 & 75yds.

Here's an example of how one cop utilized good handgun marksmanship skills to end a nasty situation. 1-handed shot, using a .40 duty pistol, while holding horses, made at 104yds. Makes you think about knowing yourself and knowing your gun.
https://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog...shoots-suspect-104yds-holding-horses-handgun/

Now, in my retirement I usually continue my practice drills for 1-25yds on the short range, and run whatever usual qual courses-of-fire are being done, and occasionally go out further on the rifle range. My eyes aren't what they used to be at further distance, but that's no excuse to let the basic skills rust away.

 

[Hangingrock]

Tom Givens author: Concealed Carry Class The ABCs Of Self-Defense tools And Tactics -Chapter Twelve: Training Priorities, a very informative read concerning shooting distances among the information provided.

 

[Kleanbore]

Thanks, Hangingrock.

Just ordered it.

Preview looks excellent.

 

[Hangingrock]

Your welcome Kleanbore

 

[Madcap_Magician]

I think you should practice at the furthest distance that you can reasonably and consistently hit your target at with a goal of increasing that distance. The odds are quite good that if you ever need your firearm, it will be at close range, but A) there are many situations and actual incidents where sitting a handgun at range was both justified and necessary and B) you will become a better shot at any range of you are constantly pushing your limits.

 

[Kleanbore]

I think you should practice at the furthest distance that you can reasonably and consistently hit your target at with a goal of increasing that distance. .... you will become a better shot at any range of you are constantly pushing your limits.

That sounds reasonable to those whose shooting has been limited to shooting at the square range.

We need to ask our selves whether the skills gained in shooting at longer ranges would really serve us well at all if we needed to put several rounds very quickly into someone rounding the back of a pickup truck and charging at us from ten feet.

Stance, sight picture, and the balance of speed and precision needed would differ markedly, and we would almost certainly move while drawing.

 

[Citron]

I have been told that if it is under about 5 yards and someone is rushing, you may be better served to not even draw your weapon. The theory being that you probably won't have time to draw and bring to bear. Now you are handicapped because you are down to one arm to fend off the attack, since the other is tied up messing with your ccw. That line of thinking leads to the thought that it is just as important to train in hand to hand, some sort of martial arts, as it is to train with the ccw.

I have giving it thought, and it makes sense to me.

 

[Jim Watson]

We need to ask our selves whether the skills gained in shooting at longer ranges would really serve us well at all if we needed to put several rounds very quickly into someone rounding the back of a pickup truck and charging at us from ten feet.
.

What I ask myself is why is it so often debated as either-or?
Short range or long, aim or point, you CAN practice both. And in-between, too.

 

[Kleanbore]

Short range or long, aim or point, you CAN practice both. And in-between, too

Sure.

 

[huntsman]

I shoot my Shields in the 10-12 yard range.

my M&P9C or G23 20 yards and in because those guns I use for quals for my church safety team, we have to shoot from 55’

 

[Kleanbore]

I shoot my Shields in the 10-12 yard range

How rapidly?

 

[huntsman]

As fast as I can pull the trigger

 

[couldbeanyone]

I would submit that you let how far be dictated by how fast. Practice shooting an 8 inch circle at the longest distance that you can get consistent hits at a pace of 1 shot every 3/10ths of a second. Then lengthen the distance to the longest distance you can get consistent hits on that 8 inch plate at a pace of 1 shot every 6/10ths of a second. As you become faster, continue to push the distance as necessary to maintain the desired time interval. A reasonable level of accuracy is vital, but you also must be fast enough to matter. You can play with these time intervals, but I very seldom practice shooting farther than I can shoot 6/10 of a second splits and the majority of my practice is considerably faster. About the only time I shoot slower than 6/10ths of a second splits is if I'm sighting in a gun.

 

[rkittine]

For protection, I would rather be able to point and shoot accurately at 7 yards (the old 7 yard belly gun adage) than have to sight and shoot to be accurate at 25 or 50 yards. If someone is 50 yards away from me, I will just be heading in the other direction.

Bob