Practice only with carry gun?

[9mmepiphany]

My experience mirrors Sams'

I teach clients with a wide variety of handguns...everything from a SIG DA/SA to a Glock or a revolver...and try to stay somewhat proficient with all of them. Fundamental skills allow me to shoot most of them well, but I noticed long ago that it takes some dedicated work to re-gain a feel for the trigger...which is the most important factor in shooting accurately and quickly.

Static accuracy is fairly simple, but the trigger control to shoot at anything approaching 4/shots/sec into 3" takes quite a bit of effort until I get familiar with the trigger

 

[Bovice]

I disagree a good deal with the philosophy of shooting "easier to shoot" guns and calling it good in terms of your carry pistol skills.

What the majority of those who carry actually tote around are small pocket pistols or subcompacts. They practice with their full-size or larger handguns, and can't hit for crap with their carry pistols. Case in point, I saw a guy after an IDPA match (match shot using a modded G34) shoot his M&P shield, and he couldn't hardly keep the shots on an IDPA cardboard target at 10 yards. He said "it's just a belly gun, I'd never shoot it any distance anyway." Who are you? A fortune teller? You know ahead of time what distance you'll have to shoot?

To me, that's unacceptable. You should be proficient to at least 15, in my mind. There's no replacement for real trigger time. Don't make that mistake.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I don't think the actual shooting is the problem. The issues I see are around where, how does a safety operate. Where is the mag release a fraction of an inch is a miss on some.

 

[Bobson]

This is one thing I appreciate about Glock's. From full size to subcompact they all feel the same.

And if you didn't have a glock in your hands?

I've never really understood this, but it comes up somewhat regularly. What are we assuming here? That there's a chance I'm going to pick up some random gun off the ground and not understand how to use it? The odds of that happening seem ridiculously low - comparable to being hit by lightning or something - unless you're in a combat environment, where there are as many firearms on the ground as bodies, and I don't think that's what we're discussing here.

In other words, if I make it a point to never carry anything but a G19, it seems remarkably unlikely that I'll find a different gun in my hands at a critical moment.

 

[tarosean]

The odds of that happening seem ridiculously low - comparable to being hit by lightning or something - unless you're in a combat environment, where there are as many firearms on the ground as bodies, and I don't think that's what we're discussing here.

How many of the conversations on the board are based around ridiculously low probabilities?
We have about the same percentage of chance of being struck by lightning as we do using our HD/SD weapons in a confrontation period.
I remember a study (FBI) where most bad guys get tunnel vision on the barrel of your gun when in a gun fight. Either disabling the weapon or your hands, arm. The reason many people train for weak hand drills, etc. The strange gun comes about from hand to hand combat with the bad guy and you ending up with their gun. Not bodies and guns laying around.
Sure the probabilities are low. I'll still CHL every day, train and hopefully never need it.

 

[Sam1911]

Ok, so the probability of needing a gun at all is low.

The probability of having to grab some unknown or "found" gun is exceedingly rare -- within that subset of already very low probability situations. Multiplicities of rarity, if you will.

That's the point that makes the "better train with everything just in case" argument void. You should know how to operate as many weapons as you're likely to run across in your region. You should TRAIN WITH the ONE (or few) weapon(s) you are actually likely to have on you or near at hand for defensive purposes.

 

[breakingcontact]

You should TRAIN WITH the ONE (or few) weapon(s) you are actually likely to have on you or near at hand for defensive purposes.

This is what I'm thinking.

However, there comes the question of, on the street defense, versus home defense.

Suppose I should just setup a shotgun for home defense.

 

[Skribs]

Hmmm...I guess this would be an argument for the 1911 in a "1911 vs Glock" debate. If you're used to the pick-up-and-shoot style of the Glock (like I am, except not specifically a Glock) you will probably take a minute to shoot if you have to pick up a 1911. If you are used to a 1911 and pick up a Glock, you just go to swipe the safety and hit nothing, and then point and shoot like you would normally do.

Of course, like Sam said, it's not that likely that you will A) need a gun, B) not have yours available, AND C) have another gun available that is of a different configuration.

If we're talking about practicing with .22 vs. 9 (or whatever your carry is), it was actually brought up in a thread a while back to start off your practice with your hardest-recoiling gun (or in this case, pistol). It's the same principle as batters weighting their bats when they're on deck. If you shoot buffalo bore .44 magnum loads at the start of your range trip, then those .357 magnums will feel like nothing after that.

Suppose I should just setup a shotgun for home defense.

Not a bad idea. But train with both the shotgun and the pistol. Don't just say "oh it's a shotgun, I don't have to aim." I think that's why some people on this forum prefer a pistol for SD, they can focus more on the one weapon platform they'll use for HD and CCW.

 

[P-Dog]

It's a matter of percentages. Like any skill, practicing with a variety of weapons increases your skills in ... a variety weapons. You strengthen "generalized" skills that apply across the board to all firearms or all firearms of a specific class. So there is nothing wrong with training with a variety. But if you want to strengthen skills, muscle memory, gross and fine motor movements with a specific weapon you must ALSO dedicate specific training time to that specific weapon.

 

[breakingcontact]

Not a bad idea. But train with both the shotgun and the pistol. Don't just say "oh it's a shotgun, I don't have to aim." I think that's why some people on this forum prefer a pistol for SD, they can focus more on the one weapon platform they'll use for HD and CCW.

I suppose I view the CCW gun as a compromise. Small/light at the expense of capacity/power.

While at home you have better options, whether that's a full size handgun or a shotgun.

 

[Skribs]

I'm not disagreeing with you. I'm just stating that if you use both, train with both. Otherwise you'd be better off with just one.

 

[Sam1911]

I suppose I view the CCW gun as a compromise. Small/light at the expense of capacity/power.

While at home you have better options, whether that's a full size handgun or a shotgun.

That's one I can't quite make up my mind about. I've had spirited debates with quite respected (and accomplished) friends regarding the absolute values of handguns vs. shotguns and/or vs. carbines for home defense or other defensive situations where one has the ability to reasonably arm themselves with the long gun.

In my home I do not have to resort to "merely" a 1911 or other handgun to mount a defense.

However, I shoot at least 100:1, and maybe 1,000:1 rounds handgun:long-gun. I practice every single week defensive shooting skills with handguns plus shooting matches with them, often several times a month. And that is where my proficiency (even bordering on "mastery," not to flatter myself) lies. A rifle or shotgun is a more "powerful" more "capable" gun than a service-style sidearm -- no question. But if I am simply more in command of shot placement, speed, manipulations, maneuvering, use of cover, reloads, transitions, etc., etc., with the handgun because I use it so very often, what level of firepower or other benefits from using a long-gun do I have to anticipate before the long-gun is MY better choice for home defense?

We can't argue that it is easier to hit with a long gun, because for me at distances that exist within my home, it absolutely is not. (And I have the timer results to prove it.)

We can't argue that those long guns are faster to aim and shoot, because for me, they are not.

We can't argue that it is easier to make follow-up shots with a long gun, because for me at distances that exist within my home, it absolutely is not. (And I have the timer results to prove it.)

We can't argue that they are easier to manipulate and move with inside a structure, because that's clearly untrue. (I'm familiar with properly using long-guns inside structures. Handguns are still clearly superior in that regard.)

So it seems to come down to "firepower" and "overpenetration" as the big factors in favor of the long-gun and I'm just not sure that really sells it for me.

That said...I still have the M500 under the bed.

 

[Roadking Rider]

One of the resons all my pistols have the 1911 grip angle. Changing from one to the other is no big deal.

 

[Skribs]

I'd also argue that with a shotgun you get 8-26 follow-up shots a lot faster than with a pistol But that's more in line with your firepower comment.

I would argue that what is better in theory isn't what always is better for everyone. For example, I think a rifle is better in theory, but the only range nearby that I like is an indoor range (shotgun/pistol only) so I can actually practice with my shotgun. I think rifles and shotguns are better than a pistol, but that doesn't mean they are better for you. Pistol + Training > Rifle + Call of Duty any day of the week.

 

[breakingcontact]

That makes sense. Whatever a person trains the most with is very often their best choice.

 

[TimboKhan]

I am in agreeance with Sam and 9mmE. I am not a total expert with a handgun by any stretch, but I am above average at shooting handguns and I have shot a lot of them. I have found that very rarely am I flummoxed by some different pistol or rifle or even shotgun.

Train with what you fight with is a fine philosophy, and if you were taking a training class, then I absolutely would agree, and I certainly am not advocating not training with your main gun at all. What I am advocating is that this idea can be taken to far, for no real gain. I shoot thousands of .22 a year, and I can tell you right now that I am a better shooter because of that. If all I shot was my fighting guns, then I would be a much less competent shooter if for no other reason than expense. I am of the opinion that practicing the fundamentals is far more important than just training what you fight with, because the fundamentals can be transferred to a lot of different types of guns with no real effort necessary.

Incidentally, this is why I don't buy into the Glock grip angle hype, and why I often roll my eyes when the vast number of trigger experts complain whenever they shoot something with a less than an ideal trigger. For all the things that really good shooters do to personalize their guns the thing that gets overlooked is that they can also generally pick up just about anything and shoot it well.

 

[breakingcontact]

Shot IDPA with my Shield today...I need to "practice with my carry gun" more.

And by practice more I mean to acquire accuracy AND speed. I think I'm better off at the local range doing drills to improve my speed while retaining accuracy.

IDPA isn't all that "tactical" and it may not be "training" but it is a reality check. I can make nice tight groups at the range. But firing one handed, weak handed, around obstacles, advancing/retreating and while trying to do it all quickly is a whole different beast.

Very humbling to shoot with some of these really good shooters. No excuses, I just need to practice more.

 

[tomrkba]

One school of thought is to practice exclusively with one gun.

I do not subscribe to that notion at all. It certainly would not have made me a good shooter. I try to shoot a range of guns across a range of actions. This has taught me trigger control, which is the primary skill necessary to be able to shoot any handgun well.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I think I'm better off at the local range doing drills to improve my speed while retaining accuracy.

IDPA isn't all that "tactical" and it may not be "training" but it is a reality check.

It is really useful as a self test to see if you skills hold up under pressure.

Hint: You can only shoot a quickly as you can see your sights, if you try to shoot faster than you can see your sights on target, you are just spraying-n-praying. Learn to see your sights faster and shorten the lag between seeing them and pressing the shot off...no, that doesn't mean jerking on the trigger

 

[PedalBiker]

If you don't carry on your belt all the time which gun you train with the most is secondary to the fact that you may not have any of them when you need them.

I'm in that camp. My wife doesn't like guns, so often they are not nearby. The time it takes to get to my nearest is 10x the time it would take to swipe the P354 vs down for the SR9c.

I shoot with all of mine, especially the ones I carry, but I'm no expert with any of them. I hope to die never having used any of them for self defense. I hope to be good enough if the time comes. In between I live my life working hard and being a dad and letting God deal with what I can't.

 

[breakingcontact]

"Hint: You can only shoot a quickly as you can see your sights, if you try to shoot faster than you can see your sights on target, you are just spraying-n-praying. Learn to see your sights faster and shorten the lag between seeing them and pressing the shot off...no, that doesn't mean jerking on the trigger"

I think my trigger pull was fine. But I think I needed to let my sight picture "settle" more. I was shooting when it was good enough and I was getting hits but not center of mass all the time. I need to slow down that extra percentage of a second and get a good sight picture reestablished, not just a good enough sight picture.

 

[JohnBiltz]

I shoot my carry gun. That's it. I'm a lot more interested being good with what I carry than in being well rounded, I'm not an operator. I'm a guy who carries. If I'm in a situation its pretty unlikely I'm going to be shooting anything else.

 

[9mmepiphany]

But I think I needed to let my sight picture "settle" more. I was shooting when it was good enough and I was getting hits but not center of mass all the time. I need to slow down that extra percentage of a second and get a good sight picture reestablished, not just a good enough sight picture.

I don't want to take this thread too far afield...you can start a new thread if you'd like to discuss it further. Let me just add:

1. if your shots are high, you're not waiting for the sights to return
2. if your shots are low or off to the sides, it is your grip or arm geometry

 

[breakingcontact]

Definitely a wide ranging discussion. Will probably start a new thread tomorrow on improving speed while maintaining accuracy.

On this original topic though: I shoot my carry gun at the range better than my full size gun. I think its due to the better trigger.

However, in "competition" at IDPA, I shot my carry gun worse than my full size gun. The bigger/heavier/longer/easier to grip gun gave me a score in the middle of my class whereas with my small carry gun I was near the bottom of my class. Pretty frustrated over this, going from nice tight groups at the range to not doing as well as I did (with the full size) at IDPA.

But, that's the reality and im not going back to the full size for IDPA to get better scores. Then for me it would be even more about the game and even farther away from any level of training for my tactics.

 

[harrygunner]

Consider what will be going on in your head when the "event" happens. I imagine there will be a lot to deal with, making transitioning firearm skills a disadvantage.

One might be able to transition skills at the range, but when someone is about to take your life, do you want to be thinking about:

- Which gun am I carrying today?
- Where is it on my body?
- How do I grip this gun?
- Is this one SA or DA?
- Where do I place my finger pad on the trigger of this gun?

I chose to train with my carry gun so that muscle memory handles the fundamentals while I deal with the details of that "event".