Pre-lock vs Lock Smith & Wessons

[Ethan Verity]

My dislike for the internal lock lead me to carve this custom lock delete plug from a solid bar of carbon steel using a Dremel tool; blue it; and install it in my Model 29-10! It fills in both the key hole, and the flag slot! I do wish someone with a CNC machine would make something like this, the current lock delete offerings available for sale only fill the key hole. This isn't the type of thing I would want to make again by hand. It was born out of an intense desire to delete the lock, but took way longer than was practical. It doesn't "delete" it in terms of a seamless repair, but it does keep dust out of the gun while getting rid of all those little parts.

 

[mope540]

It's prelock for me...especially if it's a carry piece like the 642-1.

One exception is this scarce revolver that was introduced after the lock came about.
It's a 8-shot 627-5 that has a standard round barrel rather than the flat and tapered "slab side" barrel. It was in production for a short period.

 

[mavracer]

I have no problem with the lock, or MIM parts. My complaint about the new guns is the lack of quality control.

Agree the newer guns just don't have the same level of "every one is built with excellent craftsmanship".
Every run of the mill model 10s pre about 1980 has a trigger every bit as good as the 686 ssr pro series gun.
I never had any issues with the IL guns I've owned, but the only one I still have is the wife's model 60 pro 3". The rest have simply migrated down the road.

 

[whatnickname]

My son had a Smith & Wesson Model 625 JM that would not function reliably as the lock would engage by itself under heavy recoil. I have a Model 625 “Model of 1989” that is head and shoulders better in quality than his Model 625 JM ever thought about being. I have several 60s vintage Model 25s. Both are marked “Model of 1955”. My guns are all tack drivers. The new guns, with the lock, have actions that are gritty in comparison to my older pre-lock guns. I’ll take an older pre-lock gun any time. And if you really want to see what Smith & Wesson was capable of, just try an old 5 screw gun. The actions on those guns cycle like everything is riding on ball bearings. And for the record, I resent the hell out of the way those locks came into existence.

 

[Styx]

My son had a Smith & Wesson Model 625 JM that would not function reliably as the lock would engage by itself under heavy recoil. I have a Model 625 “Model of 1989” that is head and shoulders better in quality than his Model 625 JM ever thought about being. I have several 60s vintage Model 25s. Both are marked “Model of 1955”. My guns are all tack drivers. The new guns, with the lock, have actions that are gritty in comparison to my older pre-lock guns. I’ll take an older pre-lock gun any time. And if you really want to see what Smith & Wesson was capable of, just try an old 5 screw gun. The actions on those guns cycle like everything is riding on ball bearings. And for the record, I resent the hell out of the way those locks came into existence.

How many trigger pulls and rounds through the 30+ year old revolvers vs the few year old revolvers you tried? The parts tend to mess better together and spring tension gets lighter to somewhat stimulate a defacto trigger job.

The triggers on the few S&W I own are just fine and get better and smoother with use. Non are gritty. I also believe that with model tech and CNC machinery that allows for consistent precise specs made the use of having to use humans to "handcraft" rough parts of the past to meet those same specs obsolete in modern times. That or S&W engineers found a way to manufacture parts that use to need to be finished or formed by hand. That's one fact that gets lost in these discussions.

I also think it's a myth that the older Smiths were built better and had better QC per se. I've heard of countless issues from the older S&Ws too. I think the only issue is that decades ago when S&W was cranking out revolvers, they made much less thus the sample size was smaller vs today (10x more produced, 10x more lemons) and there were no internet forums and social media. I own well over 100 guns and I only had a major problem with one which was a Ruger. If it wasn't for inet forums and listening to thousands of other opinions and reviews, my opinion one what's reliable and what's not would be based on my limited personal experience mostly... The old S&Ws had a lot of QC and design issues too. The K frames design issues are just one example.

 

[mavracer]

How many trigger pulls and rounds through the 30+ year old revolvers vs the few year old revolvers you tried?

Well several of the 30+ year old revolvers I've shot were brand new in the box with no rounds fired 30+ years ago when I bought them.

I also believe that with model tech and CNC machinery that allows for consistent precise specs made the use of having to use humans to "handcraft" rough parts of the past to meet those same specs obsolete in modern times.

The thing is you still have 2 guys one that makes the part and one that installs it. Sure modern technology has made the first guy way better at turning out a constant part, but in order to pay for that machine you fired the mechanic and hired an assembler. So now you need to shoot 500 to 1000 rounds to wear in the parts that were slapped together.

 

[kidneyboy]

I also think it's a myth that the older Smiths were built better and had better QC per se. I've heard of countless issues from the older S&Ws too. I think the only issue is that decades ago when S&W was cranking out revolvers, they made much less thus the sample size was smaller vs today (10x more produced, 10x more lemons) and there were no internet forums and social media. I own well over 100 guns and I only had a major problem with one which was a Ruger. If it wasn't for inet forums and listening to thousands of other opinions and reviews, my opinion one what's reliable and what's not would be based on my limited personal experience mostly... The old S&Ws had a lot of QC and design issues too. The K frames design issues are just one example.

Why are you introducing reality into this? Everything was better in the good old days.........

 

[Pat Riot]

I would guess most owners would not be able to find the key for the lock. I have three SW revolvers with the lock and don't even remember if the key was included. Probably, the number of owners that actually use the lock for its intended purpose is infinitessmally low.

Hahaha...I really do not know for sure where my keys are.

 

[whatnickname]

How many trigger pulls and rounds through the 30+ year old revolvers vs the few year old revolvers you tried? The parts tend to mess better together and spring tension gets lighter to somewhat stimulate a defacto trigger job.

The triggers on the few S&W I own are just fine and get better and smoother with use. Non are gritty. I also believe that with model tech and CNC machinery that allows for consistent precise specs made the use of having to use humans to "handcraft" rough parts of the past to meet those same specs obsolete in modern times. That or S&W engineers found a way to manufacture parts that use to need to be finished or formed by hand. That's one fact that gets lost in these discussions.

I also think it's a myth that the older Smiths were built better and had better QC per se. I've heard of countless issues from the older S&Ws too. I think the only issue is that decades ago when S&W was cranking out revolvers, they made much less thus the sample size was smaller vs today (10x more produced, 10x more lemons) and there were no internet forums and social media. I own well over 100 guns and I only had a major problem with one which was a Ruger. If it wasn't for inet forums and listening to thousands of other opinions and reviews, my opinion one what's reliable and what's not would be based on my limited personal experience mostly... The old S&Ws had a lot of QC and design issues too. The K frames design issues are just one example.

Most of older Smith & Wesson handguns, including the majority of the 5 screw guns I own, have very low round counts. I’m gonna stand by my previous statement. There is just no comparison between the older guns and the stuff Smith & Wesson is turning out today.

 

[whatnickname]

Hahaha...I really do not know for sure where my keys are.

I had a Model 638 with the lock that I brought for my second wife whom later became an alcoholic. She was a mean drunk and prone to violence. I put all of my guns in the safe. She didn’t have the combination. I locked her gun and threw away the key. We divorced better than ten years ago. I’ve often wondered if she ever attempted to fire that gun.

 

[mavracer]

I think the only issue is that decades ago when S&W was cranking out revolvers, they made much less thus the sample size was smaller vs today (10x more produced, 10x more lemons)

Did you really think about this?
In the late 70s and early 80s gun counters were full of revolvers, according to ATF production numbers Smith revolver production dropped from over 190k to under 85k just from 2007-2019.

 

[.455_Hunter]

I owned a .41 Magnum 357 Nightguard for a short time. It would attempt to engage the lock during dry fire, and once did actually hang-up on the lock mechanism.

No thanks. Any post-lock gun I want in the future (like a 8-shot .357 N-frame) will have all lock hardware completely removed.

 

[357 Terms]

There is just no comparison between the older guns and the stuff Smith & Wesson is turning out today.

So true....

 

[Styx]

Did you really think about this?
In the late 70s and early 80s gun counters were full of revolvers, according to ATF production numbers Smith revolver production dropped from over 190k to under 85k just from 2007-2019.

I am open to being wrong. Please post a link to the ATF report you're referring to. Are you sure you aren't looking at export numbers or there's another misunderstanding? The data I just looked up states that just as many and even over a hundred thousand more revolvers were manufactured in the US in recent years vs back in the 80s. I am open to taking a look at the data.


Revolvers manufactured in the U.S. by year:
558,972 in 2010
572,857 in 2011
667,357 in 2012
725,282 in 2013,
744,047 in 2014,
885,259 in 2015,
856,291 in 2016,
720,917 in 2017,
664,835 in 2018.

S&W has to account for the overwhelming number of these. I bet sales and production of revolvers have hit close to 1 million domestically in 2020 and 2021. They are cranking them out just as fast as they are flying off the shelves. The numbers actually show that about the same for some years and as much as 200k more for other years revolvers are being manufactured today vs back in the 80s. I reckon until recently at least, S&W had more competition in the past vs today. Even still, evey single defect or problem that every buyer had back in the 70s and 80s were not know to and broadcasted to tens of thousands of others across the country as the inet, gun forums, and social media did not exist. 99.99% of problems, recalls, and other issues pertaining to any manufacturer's firearms that I know about I read about on a gun forum or website or watch in a YouTube video. If not for that, I'd never know.

 

[mavracer]

https://www.atf.gov/resource-center/data-statistics

It's right above where you got those you need to go in and look at each year and scroll down to revolvers and find Smith.
Looks like in 2007 Smith had about a 50% market share in 2019 it's under 25%

 

[mavracer]

I bet sales and production of revolvers have hit close to 1 million domestically in 2020 and 2021.

Maybe, but in 2019 there was only 580k they were on a down trend, 2020 was insane though.

I reckon until recently at least, S&W had more competition in the past vs today.

ATF doesn't have accessible records that go back that far. I don't think they started keeping any records til 86. But to my recollection of gun stores and gun shows in the late 70s and early 80s Smith's dominated the market.

Even still, evey single defect or problem that every buyer had back in the 70s and 80s were not know to and broadcasted to tens of thousands of others across the country as the inet, gun forums, and social media did not exist. 99.99% of problems, recalls, and other issues pertaining to any manufacturer's firearms that I know about I read about on a gun forum or website or watch in a YouTube video. If not for that, I'd never know.

A: I don't think slight fit and finish defects or gritty triggers really constitute a reportable problem.
B: I think the internet works against both like the issues you mentioned about K frames.

 

[Paul7]

Even still, evey single defect or problem that every buyer had back in the 70s and 80s were not know to and broadcasted to tens of thousands of others across the country as the inet, gun forums, and social media did not exist.

I'm not sure what your point is here, many on this thread have had a lot of experience with new and old, the consensus seems to be old is better. What can't be argued against is that the IL has been known to randomly lock up, and to many the post-IL handgun profile was changed for the worse from an asthetic standpoint.

 

[halfmoonclip]

... What can't be argued against is that the IL has been known to randomly lock up, and to many the post-IL handgun profile was changed for the worse from an asthetic standpoint.

As noted, the 340SC (now a 340PD) has a lock, and mine (admittedly, a sample of 1), as an 11oz .357, has to have the honor of the meanest kicking small handgun extant. Mine has never misbehaved, thru' more than a few magnums and a pile of .38s.
If the 340's recoil doesn't trip the lock, I'm doubtful it gives trouble as a usual thing.
I've also read that the lock changes the angle of the gun's frame; off home station at the moment, but I'm skeptical of this as well.
Easy fix; if you don't like the lock, don't buy it.
This has been beaten like a rented mule.
Moon

 

[aaaaa]

My son had a Smith & Wesson Model 625 JM that would not function reliably as the lock would engage by itself under heavy recoil. I have a Model 625 “Model of 1989” that is head and shoulders better in quality than his Model 625 JM ever thought about being. I have several 60s vintage Model 25s. Both are marked “Model of 1955”. My guns are all tack drivers. The new guns, with the lock, have actions that are gritty in comparison to my older pre-lock guns. I’ll take an older pre-lock gun any time. And if you really want to see what Smith & Wesson was capable of, just try an old 5 screw gun. The actions on those guns cycle like everything is riding on ball bearings. And for the record, I resent the hell out of the way those locks came into existence.

Looks like that revolver is a 45 ACP.
https://www.smith-wesson.com/firearms/archive-model-625-jm
I read that the locks jamming were on the higher caliber guns that had more recoil and is not an issue on smaller caliber guns. But I share your resentment of the locks. They absolutely should not be there. Are gunowners total idiots? We know how to lock up guns without having one built in. As bad as seat belt chimes in cars and other nanny state partnered with insurance industry and fear of lawyers type of garbage we get stuck living with.

 

[aaaaa]

Hahaha...I really do not know for sure where my keys are.

Leave them in the original box. If you save the box somewhere, then the keys are there. But should never need them. If the lock jams the gun, have the lock removed.

 

[aaaaa]

Easy fix; if you don't like the lock, don't buy it.
This has been beaten like a rented mule.
Moon

Yep and when I bought my revolver i did not even know about the lock and the salesman never said anything about it. Maybe not the best gun shop.

 

[Paul7]

As noted, the 340SC (now a 340PD) has a lock, and mine (admittedly, a sample of 1), as an 11oz .357, has to have the honor of the meanest kicking small handgun extant. Mine has never misbehaved, thru' more than a few magnums and a pile of .38s.
If the 340's recoil doesn't trip the lock, I'm doubtful it gives trouble as a usual thing.

Nobody is claiming it is a ususal thing, but if given a choice of a gun where it could happen and one where it could not, I know which I'm choosing, especially if used for SD.

I've also read that the lock changes the angle of the gun's frame; off home station at the moment, but I'm skeptical of this as well.

All you have to do is pull up internet photos of each to compare. Pre-lock frames are more svelte, IMHO.

Just from an investment standpoint the one they aren't making any more of has more upside potential.

 

[Pat Riot]

Leave them in the original box. If you save the box somewhere, then the keys are there. But should never need them. If the lock jams the gun, have the lock removed.

Ha! Whad-dya know! Apparently I left them in the box. Duh! One key for each gun is in their original box. Now at least I know where one is. Now I maybe someday I will find the mates to them.

 

[DeepSouth]

All of my Smiths have pinned barrels, so no locks for me.

With nice old Smiths as common as they are and at a similar price as new ones I’ll probably never own a new one.

 

[Domino300]

Does any one know any one who actually uses the lock?