Pre Model 10 S&W M&P .38 Special question

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CApighunter

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I have the oportunity to buy one from a friend for $200, not sure of the year, but it's a pre model 10 .38 special with a 4 inch tapered barrel. Can I shoot +Ps in this handgun or is it too weak to handle the pressures? I'll probably buy it for just a cheap plinking gun, but I'd like to be able to put some +Ps in for a back up while hunting.
 
The dividing line is when S&W started heat treating cylinders to withstand higher pressures.

There are several evolutions with .38s that are tempting to make such a distinction, black powder intended guns vs. smokeless, the advent of the model numbering system, etc.

The one that really makes the significant difference is the heat treating, which began in the 1920's. Find the date of manufacture and if it is later than that you should be good to go. As an easy identifier, Smith and Wesson says that any "Model numbered" .38 spl is fine for current SAAMI +P (model numbering started in '54?).

There was no manufacturing difference that would effect the use of +P that occurred along with the advent of model numbering, just an easy identifier. Again, heat treated cylinders or no? Find out and you have your answer. Use of +P will always accelerate normal wear over standard pressure, but I believe your question is about safe occasional use, correct?
 
Model numbering started in 1957, and that is what S&W says in regard to +P ammo. (+P+ ammo should not be fired in any standard .38 Special revolver, only in those made for .357 Magnum.)

Jim
 
I have one from the late 20's and enjoy shooting it. I wouldn't try to shoot +P with it. $200 is a good price.
 
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To make a better, more complete answer we need the serial number - that is stamped on the bottom of the butt. Include any letter prefix to the number and use XX for the last two digits.

If the revolver is in excellent or better condition and is what you describe, the asking price at $200 is around 50 to 60 percent of true market value. While it probably should not be used with Plus-P rated ammunition I suggest you run, not walk to get it.

However without the serial number (and a clear picture if possible) a certain identification cannot be made.
 
Bear in mind that advanced in metallurgy notwithstanding, what we call 38 special +P is actually what standard pressure 38spl was when these guns were new. SAAMI reduced the 38 spl pressure years ago. Imho, these fine old Smiths don't deserve to be battered with hot ammo, but I would not be afraid to shoot limited quantities of commercial +P as long as it is a hardened cylinder model.
There are different categories of pre-model-10s. There are the postwar, pre-57 guns which are pretty much a model 10. Theres the Victory era guns, and there's the pre-ww2 1905 4th change.
This is how I divide them, I'm no Roy Jinks however.
 
There is a Smith & Wesson advertisement for the M&P .38 Special 2" revolver that states it can safely shoot two cartridges, the .38 Special and the 38-44 High Speed and it lists the velocity for this round at 1125 fps. and also states that company VP Major D.B Wesson has recommended these cartridges. This ad is obviously Pre-Model 10 so I would say you can safely shoot modern day +P cartridges.
 
I'll get the serial number tomorrow. I'm interested to see when it was made. it seems the general consensus is that +p is ok in moderation. I would mostly shoot standard ammo for plinking and only the +p for hunting backup duties.
 
CApighunter said:
...it seems the general consensus is that +p is ok in moderation...
Click to expand...
The opinion of thousands of people is useless if they have no knowledge of the issue.

S&W recommends restricting +P ammunition to revolvers with model numbers only. Seems they might know about their product.

Kevin
 
For $200, do not waste time walking or running, but hop in the car (your screen name appears to reference California) and buy that revolver as soon as you can!

Even if it is not suitable for shooting +P ammo as a backup while hunting, you simply cannot go wrong at that price, as long as the S&W passes the pre-purchase checkover.
 
Heat treating of cylinders began at serial number 316648 in 1919. All the replacement barrels / cylinders that I've noticed in the DOB thread occurred on guns from the early 1930s or prior to that.
Guns with a serial range 660000 and up are from 1940-1941.
Guns with a V prefix are 1941-1944.
Guns with an SV or S prefix are 1944-1948 and incorporate a positive hammer block safety.
Guns with a C prefix are from 1948 onwards.

S&W use the model number cut off because it is convenient. Blind Freddy can open a cylinder and see if there is a model number there, while early serial numbers are duplicated over multiple models.
My simple take is a $200 gun is a good buy. If the owner shoots it loose he's only out $200. If it's a late 30s gun or younger, I personally would not have a problem with using PlusP. The only caveat, if it falls into the WWII serial ranges, check the cylinder to see if it was originally .38 S&W and later bored out to .38 S&W Special. The British received three quarters of a million revolvers in .38 S&W. A lot were modified to .38 Special when sold as Surplus in the USA. Modified guns should not be shot with PlusP unless you are willing to bulge or split brass. Guns prior to heat treatment ditto.
 
There is a Smith & Wesson advertisement for the M&P .38 Special 2" revolver that states it can safely shoot two cartridges, the .38 Special and the 38-44 High Speed and it lists the velocity for this round at 1125 fps. and also states that company VP Major D.B Wesson has recommended these cartridges. This ad is obviously Pre-Model 10 so I would say you can safely shoot modern day +P cartridges.
Click to expand...

Don't go by this.

The Great Depression was on, and sales were hard to come by. Both Smith & Wesson and they're principal competitor, the Colt Company sometimes went off the deep end when it came to advertising.

In this instance Colt opened the ball by claiming that the super-hot .38-44 loading of the .38 Special cartridge could be fired safely in any (then current) Colt .38, including the Detective Special. :what:

This put Smith & Wesson in a bind because their position was that the .38-44 load should be used only in the .38 Heavy Duty (service) or .38 Outdoorsman (target) revolvers built using the large N-frame platform. Colt had previously only recommended using it in their Single Action Army and New Service/Shooting Master guns.

Smith & Wesson did a little experimenting and found that limited use of the hot load in a recently introduced 2" snubby version of their popular K-frame, .38 Military & Police model didn't blow the gun up, but the recoil was to say the very least - abusive. :eek:

Thus they speculated that in most cases the shooter would give up before the revolver did. In addition peek pressure was slightly less because of the ultra-short 2" barrel, that produced a massive muzzle flash indicating that the slow burning powder usually used in .38-44 ammunition was burning outside the muzzle where it was harmless. In the relatively few instances where a shooter actually fired enough of the ammunition to damage an individual revolver, causing it to suffer from progressive stress (rather then a KABOOM!) they would replace it.

Fortunately before long World War Two came along, and after the war it wasn't long before both companies dropped any mention of using .38-44 cartridges in anything but their most stout models. :D

I would add that shooting both Smith & Wesson's and Colt's smaller and medium frame, pre-war and made-during-the war revolvers with ammunition that might generate extra-ordinary pressure isn't a good idea.

While the possibility/probability of inflecting damage may (or may not) be remote; If it does happen it will most likely be in the form of an expanded (not ruptured) chamber(s) that would require a new cylinder to fix, and neither of the above cited companies will touch it with a ten-foot pole.
 
So it appears that this revolver is older than I thought. It is stamped 132,0xx on the butt. The yoke is stamped 255x. From my research that would mean it was manufactured between 1906 and 1909 prior to the heat treating, and thus it is not rated for +p rounds. 132,0xx is stamped under the barrel with a prefix "B" and on the cylinder without the prefix.
 
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My thoughts exactly! hahaha The cylinder locks up nice, double action pull is smooth and single action breaks like glass.
 
To the right person, those original grips might be worth the asking price. Well played sir!

For that one, I would stick with lead full wad-cutter target loads. It may surprise you with its accuracy if bore is good. The wad-cutters are typically underestimated in their utility for defense if needed. Better than the LRN that were normally what was used when this was new.
 
The left side grip is cracked, but I may look into getting wood replacement grips. The bore and cylinders look pretty good, although dirty. I'm looking for a holster now, is this considered a K Frame?
 
The left side grip is cracked, but I may look into getting wood replacement grips.
Click to expand...

Carefully remove the stocks, as they have become brittle with age. Then see if the serial number (or part of it) are scribed on the inside. Or you may find the same number that's on the yoke. In either case it shows that they were originally hand fitted to that particular revolver. Also cracks can be repaired.

You should keep them, but not on the gun, as they are likely to get in worse condition.

Wood and black plastic replacements can be obtained at: www.gunpartscorp.com

Hopefully you understand that it's over 100 years old. Treat it with care.

To add: Yes it is a K-frame.
 
Howdy

Very nice old Smith. Round butt and hard rubber grips to boot. You stole that one for $200. Any more like it? Yes, 132,0xx falls into the 1906 to 1909 time frame. The SN on Smiths made before 1957 should show up in four places. You have found three of them, butt, underside of the barrel, and rear of the cylinder. Now take a strong light and peek at the underside of the extractor, the SN should be stamped there too. You may have to wipe off some fouling to see it. Any numbers under the cylinder crane are assembly numbers and are meaningless.

Forget shooting +P ammo in that gun. There is no need for it, why stress the old steel? I have lots of old Smiths, I never shoot +P in them. I never even load +P. No point. Yes, the grips should be scratch lettered to the gun. $200 for the grips? IMHO that's stretching it a bit for a pair of hard rubber grips with a fair amount of wear and a crack. But some folks will pay anything. Please keep the grips with the gun, don't sell them. Harder and harder to find old guns with original grips on them. You can store them if you want, but if you sell the gun, please put the original grips back on it, don't be a profiteer.

This nice old M&P is from 1939. It is one of my favorites with the round butt and hard rubber grips. No, I don't remove old grips, I am just careful with them.

MPRoundButt01-1.jpg

Old Fuff:

Thanks for explaining the bit about Douglas Wesson advocating shooting 38-44 ammo in a 2" M&P. I was going to ask a great big HUH? Couldn't imagine why S&W would promote shooting 38-44 ammo in a K frame. By the way, I have seen period advertising claiming that you could shoot 38-44 ammo in 38 Special Colts too. Thanks for explaining it.

P.S. Excellent photos, good lighting and focus. Notice that the chambering is listed as both 38 S&W Special and 38 Service Cartridge (38 Long Colt) S&W stopped putting the service cartridge marking on their guns once the US Government dropped the cartridge.
 
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