pre war "Winchester red" stock finish

[silicosys4]

I'm looking for examples of the famous "Winchester red" finish color that Winchester used on their pre-war rifles.
I'm trying to figure out of my pre-war 94 is a factory finished "Winchester red", or somebody's home finish job.

If you have a rifle that is the famous "Winchester red" factory finish, please post pictures.





Its the bottom one...The wood sits proud of the metal at the wrist and tang, giving no indication it has been sanded.

 

[I6turbo]

What years were those guns made?

 

[silicosys4]

What years were those guns made?

the one i'm trying to verify as factory original stock finish is a 1941. The other gun, the browner of the two in the one picture of the buttstocks is a 1950 and its almost assuredly been sanded and refinished.

 

[I6turbo]

IMO, you're pursuing the right avenue over on winchestercollector.org. As you probably know, Bert Hartman (Bert H) probably knows as much as anyone about the old Winchesters, and there are others there with serious knowledge as well. Hopefully you'll get some defining responses there, but it looks like Bert H has said that his opinion is that both have been refinished. I'm a little surprised that he seems to be going strongly off of the wood height. I wonder if they (an expert) can't tell by just looking at the finish? Maybe various things can happen to the finish over the years, depending upon various environmental conditions or what's been applied to them topically...

 

[silicosys4]

IMO, you're pursuing the right avenue over on winchestercollector.org. As you probably know, Bert Hartman (Bert H) probably knows as much as anyone about the old Winchesters, and there are others there with serious knowledge as well. Hopefully you'll get some defining responses there, but it looks like Bert H has said that his opinion is that both have been refinished. I'm a little surprised that he seems to be going strongly off of the wood height. I wonder if they (an expert) can't tell by just looking at the finish? Maybe various things can happen to the finish over the years, depending upon various environmental conditions or what's been applied to them topically...

I am grateful for his expertise and help. However, on the topic of the stock finishes, Bert seems to be confused, he keeps referring to the wood height of the '50 in making his determination that the '41 is refinished. I'm not sure whats going on there but I'm having trouble getting a straight answer, and Bert doesn't owe me anything anyways, so rather than keep pestering him over there I'll let it lie and maybe post a clearer thread in the future if I can't find the answer through another avenue.

 

[I6turbo]

Yes, I can't really tell what his complete opinion is other than he's confident that the sanded-down stock has been refinished.

In retrospect, it might have been better to post questions on one gun at a time in hopes of avoiding confusion by people who probably have to fly through the threads and not dwell on them too long. Maybe you should make some photos of the '41 outdoors and post a separate thread with whatever questions you have (not only the finish/refinish question)?

 

[silicosys4]

Here is where I get confused regarding the '41.
The fit of the wood to this rifle shows no signs of being sanded. All wood surfaces sit either flush or proud of the metal. If this rifle has been refinished, I cannot find any signs other than the color being a bit on the red side...which changes depending on the lighting. Outdoors in sunlight the gun looks almost garishly red, but indoors under less intense lighting it blends right in with other Winchesters I have. Here is a picture of them all together, you can see the difference between the prewar red and the later browner hues isn't as glaring in person.



And close up, I can't see anything about the fit of the wood of the '41 that gives any indication of a refinish. It does look legit to me.
The wood is flush with the bottom of the buttplate with matching wear patterns and flush with the sides,



The wood is very slightly proud of the top of the buttplate,



Its proud or flush at the tang and receiver with the exception at the upper corners which have the slightest of overhang, less than most factory fitted 94 stocks.









Yea..you can see in many places the wood is proud of the metal.And look at the color variations I'm getting just with different lighting, everything from a cherry red to a burgundy/brown.
So I'll do my best to clean up that thread and maybe Bert will have an answer for me once I get it straightened out what we are both looking at.

 

[silicosys4]

Here you can see the forend looks about the same, flush or slightly proud to the receiver with no signs of being sanded or refinished that I can see.

 

[I6turbo]

Interesting. Those are good photos, so someone with experience looking at a lot of those guns should be able to give you some definitive answers. I look forward to whatever the eventual finding is. Based upon those photos I'm going to guess "not refinished," but since I don't have experience with others from that vintage to compare to, it's just a guess without expertise.

From a wood-to-metal perspective it doesn't look to me like it's been sanded, or at least if it has, not excessively. I never understood the heavy sanding that some people do. I've refinished quite a few guns and have never sanded more than a few thousandths of an inch off of one. I guess some people get aggressive with them in order to remove dents or something. Or maybe they're using a belt sander. Yikes!

 

[silicosys4]

Interesting. Those are good photos, so someone with experience looking at a lot of those guns should be able to give you some definitive answers. I look forward to whatever the eventual finding is. Based upon those photos I'm going to guess "not refinished," but since I don't have experience with others from that vintage to compare to, it's just a guess without expertise.

From a wood-to-metal perspective it doesn't look to me like it's been sanded, or at least if it has, not excessively. I never understood the heavy sanding that some people do. I've refinished quite a few guns and have never sanded more than a few thousandths of an inch off of one. I guess some people get aggressive with them in order to remove dents or something. Or maybe they're using a belt sander. Yikes!

Bert replied that he thinks (and I'm guessing due to the color) that the wood has been lightly sanded and refinished. I agree at this point that the rifle did not leave the factory with that color wood.



I got to thinking that perhaps whatever was coated all over the receiver might have been on the stock too, which gave it that weird red painted look. I was poking around online and found a stock refinishing site that gave a suggestion to use 0000 steel wool and mineral oil to cut through whatever paint was on it without cutting through the varnish or lacquer finish.

So I gave that a shot and I think that was the trick. I went over it with steel wool, mineral oil, and paper towels, with the same brownish gunk coming off the stock as came off the steel.
After cleaning, the stock lost much of the red color and settled to a more brown/reddish orangeish tint that looks much more natural compared to other guns I have. I think this is the true prewar "Winchester red", and it is very nice.
At this point If its not original then I'm ok with it, the finish looks nice enough i'm not going to mess with it.
Now that its clean though, I do think its original.

 

[Riomouse911]

Bert replied that he thinks (and I'm guessing due to the color) that the wood has been lightly sanded and refinished. I agree at this point that the rifle did not leave the factory with that color wood.

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I got to thinking that perhaps whatever was coated all over the receiver might have been on the stock too, which gave it that weird red painted look. I was poking around online and found a stock refinishing site that gave a suggestion to use 0000 steel wool and mineral oil to cut through whatever paint was on it without cutting through the varnish or lacquer finish.

So I gave that a shot and I think that was the trick. I went over it with steel wool, mineral oil, and paper towels, with the same brownish gunk coming off the stock as came off the steel.
After cleaning, the stock lost much of the red color and settled to a more brown/reddish orangeish tint that looks much more natural compared to other guns I have. I think this is the true prewar "Winchester red", and it is very nice.
At this point If its not original then I'm ok with it, the finish looks nice enough i'm not going to mess with it.
Now that its clean though, I do think its original.

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Excellent job, that older 1894 looks fantastic.

Stay safe.