Preacherman ..... prisoner's gun attitudes?

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P95Carry

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You happened to mention in the ''Thanksgiving'' thread about working ... and prison, over the holiday.

Suddenly got me to wondering ...... what are the attitudes toward guns by the incarcerated?? I would guess, for the most part .... ''positive'' in as much as for many they might be regarded as ''tools of the trade''!!

OTOH, perhaps some who are ''inside'' are there because of having been at gunpoint or even shot .. another angle.

In your line of work tho I'd imagine you have some pretty deep conversations .... and so am interested for your take on this. May seem odd perhaps but ... driven by pure curiosity.
 
IIRC, Paxton Quigley, in her book Armed and Female had interviewed some prisoners regarding armed citizens.

Needless to say, the general sentiment was that armed citizens scared the bejezus out of them, and would take pains not to encounter them.
 
Broadest of questions El T ..... their attitude to guns in their hands ... what they did and how it might have influenced their attitudes .. and their thinking on ''legal'' guns outside .. the whole deal really. Pretty much, whatever any con might have spoken about them.

I just am downright curious!

Preacherman said he'd try and swing by this thread when he has the time.
 
Hmmmm, well, they don't like getting shot. Many individuals in the professional criminal (I use this term for the real bad boys, not Jethro, Jasper or Cledus on their third OWI) class have been shot (usually by pistols). The first one hurts the worst I am told.

Guns are treated as tools. It matters not the caliber, tacticality or bear-killing factor. It is a means to an end.

Guns, like drugs or stolen property, can always be obtained from a variety of sources, stolen from homes, stolen from the police, homemade, smuggled into the country. Pass any law you wish, it will be ignored. I was once told by a Chicago Blackstone Ranger that his house contained over 150 firearms--hidden in various places.

Guns held by private citizen are an obstacle. The home invasion robberies of Chicago often meet with bad results for the alleged perpetrator when attempted here. This is treated as part of the battlefield and substitute crimes occur when forethought is applied (remember illicit drugs factor into an enormous number of the "cowboy" robberies, hot burglaries).

Depending upon the criminal, they are more fluent in the gun culture than you realize. Yes, you do find young homeskillets with the wrong mags in the weapon or using improper ammo or carrying broken weapons. However, a percentage (very small) can read you, the gun enthusiast--your photo vest, your walk, your Glock hat, which states have "concealed carry", etc. If you are an adult white male in a state with CCW, you are more likely to be left alone by those that can read you.

Remember, "criminals" are divided into numerous subgroups. So, IMHO, it is hard to make general statements. Lots of crimes out there. Big difference between Bobby Lee's HTV and Jimmy Lee's Home Invasion.
 
I worked a short time with my former preacher and his prison ministry when he first came to our church. Mostly in getting released prisioners back into society and their families.

It was a real eye opener in that most of the neighbors didn't want a convicted felon any where near their houses.
They are shunned by society even after serving their time which is why I believe the rate of return to prison is high.

Anyway I talked to a number of them about guns and why they used them.
Most answers were the same. It gave them the feeling of power over their victims, especially when high on drugs or drunk.
They felt it would actually prevent violence by making the victim do what they want without fighting back.
Most didn't have the guts to do what they did either without a gun, on drugs or drunk.

Gang bangers were different. It was clear cut case of being "respected" if you had a gun and were willing to use it.

I couldn't take more than a year of working with these prisoners.
I found my logical mind not anywhere in tune with these guys as they lived for the minute and believed they had no future.
That coupled with societies rejection of them was too much.
 
We were visiting my SIL in Albuquerque, having a BBq with neighbors, onw of whom was a city cop. She told an interesting srory that sort of reflects the criminal attitude towards armed citizens - Seems that during some labor relations between the city and teh constabulary, there was an outbreak of teh 'blue flu'. During this'epidemic', the local citizens formed armed neighborhood watch, and the crime rate went down to virtually nothing.

Once the cops were back on the job and things were back to normal, she was chatting with one of the local habitual offender-types and asked him what he'd been up to lately. He said he had been laying low and staying out of trouble. She asked why, was some one on his case or something? His reply was to the effect that when the cops were on the job and he was 'takin' care of bidness', if he got caught, all he got was arrested, but with the cops out and the citizens in the strees, "well, them citizens, they'll kill ya!":D :cool:
 
Needless to say, the general sentiment was that armed citizens scared the bejezus out of them, and would take pains not to encounter them.
'Zactly. Despite the Hollywood hype, knowingly going in front of a gun is a sign of insanity or stupidity. Just because they're criminals doesn't mean they're stupid.
 
Criminals and guns... boy, where do I start?

I think this can be divided into two categories: criminals and their use of guns, and criminals and their reactions to guns in the hands of potential victims. Let's tackle each in turn. Also, please bear in mind that the kind of criminals I've discussed this with are medium- to high-security inmates, in the Louisiana State system and in the Federal system. Less "hard-core" criminals might have different things to say, but I'm not familiar with them, so I can't comment.

I think there are a small proportion of criminals - perhaps 5% or so - who really know their weapons, and actively seek out good-quality firearms appropriate for their needs. (A good example would be the North Hollywood bank shootout a few years ago, or the Miami Massacre in 1986 - these bad guys really armed themselves well, and knew how to use their weapons effectively). Some of those of this type with whom I've spoken have been big-time crime bosses, or contract hitmen. They seem to pride themselves on their professionalism as criminals, in the overall sense, and see firearms as a professional's tool. Fortunately, they're a small minority of the criminals out there!

A second group would be the gang-bangers. Among these guys, a firearm is a status symbol, a sign that "I'm a real cool dude" or "I'm the baddest guy on the block". Most of them have little or no idea of how to use the weapon - hence the term "gangsta-style aiming", where they hold the gun high above their heads with a bent wrist, shooting downward at their intended victim, or hold it on its side. They're also remarkably careless about routine weapon maintenance, buying ammunition (the cheaper, the better, seems to be their approach) and the use of accessories such as holsters. (In several cities, LEO's have informed me that if they see someone carrying a gun, and it's in a holster, they automatically assume that the carrier is a CCW permit holder, as the local BG's never, ever use holsters.) As for ammo - there's one guy in prison right now (and a cop who's thankfully still alive) because the BG bought "nine mil" ammunition, without specifying what he wanted, or even the exact caliber. As a result, he was sold a box of 9x23 fodder, which he loaded into the magazine of his pistol but did not chamber. (I think the pistol was one of the cheapies - Lorcin, Jennings, Bryco, or something like that.) Anyway, when he was interrupted during a drugstore heist, he racked the slide and pointed the gun at the cop - only to have the gun fail to fire because the 9x23 cartridge was too long for the 9x19 chamber. The cop, not noticing that the slide was out of battery, fired three rounds into his guts, which the BG still resents as being a terribly ungrateful sort of thing for the cop to do... :D

A third group would be those who routinely use firearms in the commission of crimes, but regard them more as psychological tools than precision instruments. To them, guns are a means to threaten, intimidate and subdue their victims. Sometimes these guys are really dangerous: if they have prior convictions (which is usually the case) and don't want to get another sentence (especially if they're in states with a "3 strikes" law), they may very well try to kill their victims and any other witnesses, so as to render prosecution difficult. Often, they dispose of their guns as soon as they've used them, so that there won't be any ballistics match-up to them. They're not very good with their guns, but they're more than willing to use them if they have to.

A final note: if the criminals from the last two groups mentioned are on drugs, the likelihood of their using their weapon goes up exponentially. They're no longer able to think clearly about the consequences of shooting someone, and they're also likely to be very slow in their mental processes. They might pull the trigger in a moment of anger, or in a blank daze, without thinking about it. I know a number of such guys who are doing very long prison terms, and they still don't remember killing or wounding anyone - that part of their lives is a complete blank.

As to citizens with guns: virtually all criminals hate and fear the armed citizen. They're particularly concerned with two types:

1. The untrained, panicking target, who is completely unpredictable as to whether he'll shoot or not, and how accurate he may be;

2. The CCW holder, whose status as such is usually unknown until the crime occurs - criminals hate surprises! :D

Oddly enough, criminals seem to be more comfortable with a really good gun-handler, who knows the law, than they are with the types mentioned above. They reason that a good shot and an informed gun-owner will not shoot them if they flee, and is good enough with his gun that he won't fire indiscriminately, which they regard as a greater danger than aimed fire (probably because they encounter so much of it from their own kind!).

Many criminals - those capable of some thought, anyway, which tends to exclude gang-bangers and drug-addicts! - have told me that if they see a neat, clean house, in an up-market neighborhood, they regard it as a relatively safe target. If it's a less well-kept house, or in a lower-class neighborhood, they regard it as more dangerous, as the occupants are more likely to have a gun around the place. They also draw a distinction between city folks and those in more rural areas or smaller towns. The latter are regarded as MUCH more dangerous, more independent, more likely to own guns, more likely to rely on their own efforts for defence rather than trusting to law enforcement to protect them. (Inner-city gangsta's don't make this distinction, but then they're not exposed to it much. All too often, those who are exposed to it - at least in this part of the world - don't survive the experience, and so can't pass on the lesson! :D )

A significant number of prisoners have been shot - at a rough guess, I'd say 20% or better. Of these, the vast majority have been shot either by their own kind, in gang battles, or by armed citizens. Probably only a few have been shot by law enforcement. The prevailing attitude among the more street-smart crooks (again, excluding gang-bangers and drug addicts) is that if the cops draw down on you, give it up, RIGHT NOW - you won't get another chance. (Of course, the majority of these crooks are from the South-East, South and South-West USA, where cops are rather more likely to use lethal force than they would be in, say, Chicago or New York, where liberal thought processes have made the use of deadly force much more controversial.)

The coldest, most scary characters have to be the few hit-men I've met. One of them is responsible for at least 7 murders (well, those are the ones for which he was convicted, but he makes no secret of the fact that there were others). He claimed to me that he wasn't sorry for killing them, as they were all crooks and bad guys who deserved to die. He seems to be utterly without a conscience, and speaks quite casually of arms, their use, and the selection of different weapons for different scenarios. He's in for life, and won't get parole, but is still a very dangerous man indeed. It's noticeable that even the roughest gang-bangers on the compound give him a wide berth. No-one messes with this guy!

I hope this helps to answer your questions. Let me know if it needs further elaboration.
 
An excellent treatise Peter and thank you for taking the trouble .. and probably more than a little time. Much appreciated. :)

Most of what you mentioned was I guess, in part as least, predictable .... but some more subtle points were less so.

I am becoming aware, that in some respects there is a useful aspect to better understanding the criminal mindset .... such that we, as all potential victims, might better be prepared.

I am glad to be reassured regarding their views on CCW's .... that substantiates what we certainly wish to believe and what figures seem to bear out.

Except for those guys who are ''spaced out'' during the commission of a felony .... it seems that pretty much all do have both a self-preservation instinct still intact and a healthy respect for the armed citizen.

It is to be hoped (by me anyways, and I expect most here) that CCW does become the de facto norm state wide before too long (one or two of course maybe never giving in - and we know who they are!) .. and even better .. that ''reciprocity agreements'' are not even required any more .... carry being simply available and approved .... anywhere within the ''50''.

Thanks again, very much.:)
 
May I interject? I work in in AZ supermax lockdown prison, and deal with the worst of the worst. I have been there for two years, and in that time have asked several of them about firearms. Theusual answer was indeed, the armed citizen scares them WAY more than law enforcement. In fact, there answers tally about 99% to what Preacherman said.
One interesting thing I would like to relate is one inmate doing life, who is working on his appeals. He is the shoeshine guy, and quite amiable. I asked him how long it would take him to get a firearm after he hit the streets. His answer? " All I gotta do is call up my people pickin' me up, and tell 'em to 'bring one of them things along'. I'll have it in my hand before I get outta sight of this place!"
Waiting periods do so much good.
 
Most of what I've seen mirror the comments of others that have posted here. It seems inmates are pretty much the same wherever you go. I've worked in the Oklahoma system and now I am a C.O. in the FL system. It seems that inmates think alike. :D

However, criminals in Fl are a bit more reluctant to get caught with a firearm or use a firearm since we enacted the 10-20- life sentencing guidelines.

I will tell you that I do get to see lots of bullet holes since I'm the Disciplinary Confinement Officer. During shower night it's not uncommon to see several bullet scars in the upper torso. A vast majority are 9mm holes. A few have .40. That makes a lot of sense since the caliber choice of criminals are usually 9mm or .40. This is also the choice of the majority of police agencies. It also has a lot to say about the stopping power of these calibers and handguns in general.

Very few have .357. I've never seen a .45 Auto scar and the one .45 Colt scar I saw was on a wheelchair bound inmate. Seems he tried to run from a County Sheriff packing .45 Colt SAs.

Good Shooting
Red
 
Preacherman, thanks for your input. It buttresses up some long held hunches. :D
 
I was a prison guard for awhile quite a few years ago, and don't care if I never even drive past another prison at 65 miles an hour, thanks all the same. What a pit!

Preacherman's comments are what I'd have said if I could exercise the keyboard that long.

The vast majority of criminals I knew who mentioned guns were profoundly ignorant and/or grossly misinformed and/or utterly shameless liars. Theirs were the wrongest possible hands for firearms.
 
Anybody take note of the 3 strikes thing?

It certainly does follow that with the stakes being higher in 3 strikes states, the motivation to kill witnesses is present.

Has there ever been a study that addresses that? I'd love to see an ANOVA of the factors of ccw/no ccw, 3 strikes/no 3 strikes, and victimization rates.
 
Thanks for bringing this up, it's been a VERY informative thread and also affirmed a few hunches of mine.

Those politicians and liberals who oppose concealed carry have a lot to learn from inmate accounts such as these.
 
stv, no need for them to learn, they already fully understand that criminals will not obey gun laws, but good people will. Gun laws are to disarm the good people, not the criminal.

Politicians have no interest in controlling crime, just you. Crime is not a convenient stalking horse for their real agenda.:)
 
After 10 years in Corrections and 8 years in Law Enforcement, I have realized that the only things that criminals are truly afraid of are law-abiding citizens with guns, and really big dogs :).

Just my .02,
LeonCarr
 
Preacerman

Preacherman .. sorry first time .... wretched ''figners'' and the ''keebroad''..... :)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

One more question element .. I nearly kicked off a new thread but seemed I might try and catch you on this one.

The time (considerable I'd guess) that you spend with these hard boiled miscreants .... just how fruitful do you think it is??

I mean, leaving aside any religious approaches you may make to help them see things better ....... do you, at the end of a session .... ever feel that an individual has significantly changed?? In their attitude to life ... those around them and the feelings they had/have re guns.

What I am asking I guess is .... do you think recidovism is inevitable?? Or do just a few see things sufficiently different to make their way safely in the ''outside world''.

I am thinking with some chill what you said about the 2 due for release this week!
 
Don't forget that there are different classifications of prisoners. In the Federal system, we have five: Minimum, Low, Medium, High and Max custody. Minimums are usually non-violent offenders with reasonably low sentences (typically less than 10 years), and go to FPC's - Federal Prison Camps - these often don't even have a fence around them, much less a wall. Low and Medium inmates go to FCI's - Federal Correctional Institutions - which have a fence or wall, and higher security. These would be inmates who've trickled down from higher levels of security, or who've entered the system with a relatively non-dangerous offence record, but are still considered a bit too risky to go to a camp. High and Max inmates go to USP's - United States Penitentiaries, like the one where I work. These inmates are considered highly dangerous to society and/or to other inmates, and are held under much more rigorous security. Some of them - relatively few - are considered so dangerous that they are housed in two Supermax prisons, in Florence, CO or Marion, IL. These Supermax units are not really any higher security than a USP, but they keep inmates locked down 23 hours out of 24, and inmates never leave their cells except in handcuffs, waist chains and leg-irons. You have to be really incorrigible to land up there...

With this in mind, I'm sure you understand that dealing with inmates in the Minimum and Low security categories is a totally different affair from those in High or Max categories. I deal with the latter, and it's frequently a very frustrating experience indeed. Most of them fear neither God nor the Devil, and see the chaplains as convenient targets for manipulation, to get favors from us or to bypass the system in some way. We have to be constantly on our guard against this. Also, most of them are not in the least repentant about their crimes, and many are planning new ones when they get out. Fortunately, at this level, most of them won't get out until 20 or 30 years after sentencing, by which time they're not really "up" on society in general or crime in particular.

There are a few that one can help: I'd estimate 1 in 20 at the most, or 5% (at High and Max levels, that is - obviously, the proportion is much larger in lower-security institutions). I've been able to help some of them, and I constantly look for others who might respond to an approach. It's very important to come to them as a pastor, not representing any one denomination (or even trying to sell one religion), but meeting them where they are and trying to establish a dialog. Most of the time, it doesn't work: but now and again, one can strike gold...

Please understand that we don't just do this for the sake of the inmates. Nationally, the inmate recidivism rate (i.e. those reincarcerated after committing another crime) is running at about 70% after 5 years. That means that within 5 years of their release, 7 out of 10 inmates are back behind bars. Depressing thought, isn't it? It's even worse for our High and Max inmates: I'd guess the recidivism rate among them is more like 85%-90%. Now, these guys, when they are released, are highly likely to rob, rape and kill again. If we can get through to one of them, and help him turn his life around, not only have we helped to save him, but we've also saved those whom he would have robbed, or raped, or killed, on his release. They'll never know it, but I'm sure God does... and that's why I take this ministry so seriously.

It's a constant battle to avoid being judgmental and work with these guys. On more than one occasion I've had to really battle to prevent myself from vomiting as someone confesses all that he's done to others. On other occasions, I've had to firmly restrain myself from punching the inmate in the schnozz! Dealing with rapists, kidnappers, sex offenders (particularly child abusers), South American drug lords, hitmen, and so on, can be really, really draining on one's psyche. It never gets easier. On the other hand, for the reasons stated above, it's worth it, IMHO...
 
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