Precision Rifle Thoughts/Suggestions (Searched and compiled some info)

[BoogerB]

Just looking to get a few more opinions on my rifle purchase. Most threads seemed to select only one or two rifles for comments, but I have some questions.
First some of the general thoughts I've gathered.
I'm looking at the Savage/Tikka/Remmys/FN SPR (somewhat)
The 10fp seems to be of high regard, as long as its purchased with any stock other than the basic. The 12 series looks promising, but is a stainless barrel that much better or useful? Thats all I seem to find without searching in depth on various auction sites.
Tikka's are purported to be some of the most accurate out of the box, but lack after market appeal.
Remmy 700s are probably the most customizable, but not "that great" out of the box. Trigger work seems to be the most requested suggestion.

Now I'm looking for something fun to shoot, accurate to punch paper to 300yrds or so (most common) with longer range capability not as high on the list for right now, but possible. I'm torn between 223 and 308, knowing the 223 isn't as accurate further out like the 308 is. Should I go small for now and go bigger later on? I'm not much of a deer or large game hunter, but wouldn't mind the ability. Should I go 223 and get the game rifle for that time, or go 308 initially? Those 2 calibers selected for readily available match grade ammo and cost. I'll reload eventually, but not yet.

Is the remmy really worth the added extra cost over the Savage? The FN SPRs are a little out of the price range for now, as I'll still have to purchase glass. Tikka seems to be ok, but I question the ability to replace parts quickly with it.

Any suggestions on glass while we are here?

I know this is quite a few questions, but I'm also open to any other suggestions.

 

[rero360]

Welcome aboard BoogerB, you'll find a wealth of information here, to answer your questions, from what I know all these rifles are excelent choices, and both calibers are good choices as well.

Personally the only rifle I own that you're looking at is a savage in .308, its a highly modified one.

for glass, all depends on what your price range is, but I'm sure most others here will recomend buying as much glass as you can afford, i have the leupold MK4 tactical in 6.5x20 power, I love it, gave me about an extra 5 to 10 minutes of shooting time the other day.

 

[BoogerB]

Thanks rero360, I was going back page by page for days before I registered to search some specifics.

I haven't set an exact price range honestly, but I'd say 1500 would be a good high end, with a lesser amount being even better.

What have you done to your Savage?

 

[dakotasin]

is remington worth more over savage? yeah, i think so. quite a bit more.

suggestions on glass... a leupold vx-3 4.5-14 or zeiss conquest 4.5-14 for starters - go better from there. the zeiss reticle (z-plex) isn't as good for paper punching as the leupold reticle, though.

caliber... for 300 - 600 yards, you can flip a coin.

you won't be able to afford to shoot enough to become really good at longer ranges (300+ yards) without handloading. also, 'match' grade factory ammo isn't necessarily the most accurate.

i'm not a fan of tikkas, even a little bit, so i'll let someone who has a few weigh in on them. i do have a few dozen remington 700's, and i finally have the savages under control at 3. the 'trigger' complaint about remingtons is common to all rifle makes - so don't let that bother you. it takes all of 10 minutes and a little fingernail polish to get a remington trigger acceptable for your purposes. same can be said for savage and winchester triggers, too.

one rifle you want to at least consider is ruger. they have been doing better in as of late, and should at least be considered.

all that said, i would reccomend a remington 700 vls in 223 for your starter rifle (can be had in stainless, though difficult to find), top it w/ a leupold vx-2 in 6-18, and learn how to become a rifleman.

spend a few minutes to understand how the trigger and firing sequence works, practice glass bedding, etc etc, and once you become proficient w/ the gun, you will be surprised how well you can shoot at 600 yards - and even beyond.

oh... yeah, stainless is marginally better, but for your needs, the only difference you'll notice is in cosmetics.

 

[ShunZu]

Might want to start out with .223, if for no other reason than cost per shot -- more time on the range usually ='s more practice. I have a bunch... including multiple bolt guns in .223 (Rem 700 VS), .308 (Browning Abolt II Varmint), .300 Win Mag (Rem 700 Sendero), .243 (Ruger MK II) to name a few of the more accurate pieces. Also have a Savage 10 and 16 in .223 and .308 respectively -- but they took some work out of the box to shoot well.

Your results may vary, but my Ruger .243 out to 500yds (definately needed a Timney trigger) and my 700 .300WM out to 800 are the best, if you have a range you can shoot that far, are real tack drivers.

Don't overlook the well-built Colts on AR-15 frames. My Colt Delta Elite 6724 AR shoots almost as well as my Rem 700, both in .223 (and it's been to the Rem custom shop). It's splitting hairs to determine which one's the best. Out of the box, my Browning A-bolt had the best trigger and action smooth as glass -- but without messing around with loads and cranking the BOSS on it, it wouldn't shoot with the 700's.

most others here will recomend buying as much glass as you can afford, i have the leupold MK4 tactical in 6.5x20 power

Absolutely. He's fortunate enough to have one of the best scopes in the world -- and worth every penny if you can afford it. If not, I still recommend you get the best glass you can for the money. Does no good to have wonderfully accurate rifles with underpar glass, and visa versa. Try to avoid the "Hemi in a Yugo" syndrome... such as a tack driving .308 Rem 700 with a fixed 4X BSA.

Welcome to THR. You'll find some great folks and good advice here.

 

[Jim Watson]

Any make rifle you name will do the job.
I don't have any experience with a current model Tikka (The old ones were great.) but I assure you that your chances with a stock Remington are as good as with a Savage. And the trigger can be adjusted. They didn't change the triggers, they just put glue over the screws and quit putting instructions in the literature.

A .223 is at least as accurate as a .308 to 600 yards. And kicks less and costs less. (But you will still soon get tired of buying real match ammunition.)

I would not want to have to hump my target rifles out in the woods. They are heavy. Buy a target rifle now, buy a hunting rifle if you want to go hunting later.

I use Leupold scopes and wish for Nightforce.
On the cheap, the Bushnell Elites and Nikons are well thought of.
Get a high power range variable. You will soon be using only the maximum or maybe about the top 1/4 of the power range, but you can build up to that instead of jumping in at the deep end with a fixed 24X or such.

 

[Commander Guineapig]

I just ordered a Remmy 700 for kind of the same purpose...
elking, and longer range target shooting.
(700, .308, bull barrel, hogue stock, X-Mark, etc etc)
I am not the world's most serious target shooter, so I can get away
with a rifle that does both.
Personally, I didn't really like the Savages that I held at 2-3 different
stores. I know they are great guns, and a lot of fellas on here love em,
but for me...well they just didn't quite do it.
The Tikkas are cool...the mags feel really weird and cheaply made tho.
I just like the Remington. Smooth action, the trigger didn't bug me, good balance.
I loved the A-Bolt as well, but I didn't have the cash
to splurge...but I love their balance and muzzle brake features.
The Rem isn't that far off on balance tho.
Go hold them, feel the triggers, feel the balance. I was really jazzed to see
all the nice Savages online, but when I went and held one it really helped
me make up my mind.
For Optics, I got a Leupold VXII 3-9X40, which graces my 10/22 till
the rifle gets in. This last weekend I shot my buddies 10/22 with a crappy
scope on it. All that stuff people say about definition and all that?
So true. It was like a light went on when I looked thru his scope.
all that to say...
go put your hands on your different rifle options.
go look thru your top scope picks.

GP

 

[Conqueror]

.223 is just as accurate as .308 to 600yds. But it lacks power beyond about 2-300. If you ever envision yourself hunting with the gun, get the .308, as it's better on most non-varmint game.

 

[3pairs12]

hey booger

I am also a new member getting ready for my first AR buid, but I currently do a fair amount of shooting at 300yds with my rem 700 in 308. I enjoy this gun a great deal but your absolutly right on when mentioning a trigger upgrade or work. A freind of mine shoots the Tikka T3 i believe and I have shot it before. Not a whole lot of upgrades for it yet but I beleive this to be changing fast it is good out of the box gun. .223 is a fun caliber but if you are in the future considering hunting deer or such I would go straight to 308. Have considered 270 that is pretty flat shooting as well. If anybody has any tips on AR builds dont hesitate to guide throught the dark.

 

[glockman19]

I too am a fan of the Remington 700. I have a CDL in .30-06 that is as accurate as I need out to 600 yards. Don't count out a Remington.

 

[cmb3366]

In my opinion the Remington is the way to go, even if you end up having it bedded and the trigger tuned. In my experince, they just plain shoot, and if you want to be really competative, a bit of work can make them run with a custom action. Pictures speak louder than words, these groups were shot at 100yds with a Remingon VLS .308 with Sierra 168MK's an Varget. The Trigger was changed to a 1.5lb Shillen, and the stock was glass bedded, other than that, the rifle is stock.








As far as scopes are concerned, my rifle wears a Browning 8-24x (a Bushnell 4200 by a different name) and I'm quite happy with it. IMO, dont short change yourself on magnification, get at least 20x top end for target shooting.

 

[hsiddall]

Booger,
Im partial to the 700 as well as I own a .308 polic model with haris bipod and Millet trs 1 scope. As far as accuracy and not being that great out of the box, well numerous reviews out on the web have stated it to shoo .5 MOA groups out of the box. Triggers are easy however I may have gotten lucky, mine breaks like glass at about 2.5 pounds right out of the factory box. For more info check out www.snipercentral.com they have many forums and helpful articles. To access forums you do have to become a member at $10 a year. Also they sell custom built rifles at a great price. Starter package includes 700 action, bell and carlson stock, leupold glass and hard case(i think) all for $975. check it out. Now as far as savage goes a buddy of mine has one and right after break in he shot a thee shot group measuring .328, not bad for a .308 round.

Well that's my 0.02.. Go Remmy and dont look back....

 

[stubbicatt]

A rifle not listed but is worth a look is the CZ. I like mine OK, but I've never shot groups like those in the photos above!
CZ rifles

 

[BoogerB]

Thanks for the info everyone. I'm still reading and thinking.
More comments and suggestions are always welcome.

 

[USSR]

Chrome lined barrel good for 15,000 rounds, sub .5MOA accuracy, CRF action, what's not to like?

Don

 

[skinewmexico]

I've got a Savage Model 12 with a 1-7 twist, shoots very, very well with 77g Black Hills blue box. I too hope for a Nightforce some day, right now I've got a Bushnell Elite 4200 that is very nice. The advantage a Savage will give you over a Remington (besides offending Remington owners) is that you can customize your own Savage. You want to customize your Remchester, take it to a 'smith, and start writing big checks. You want to customize your Savage, order a Pac-Nor or Shilen barrel, and take it to the garage.

 

[mljdeckard]

Between me and my dad, we have owned several varmint-barreled Remington 700s, from 22-250 to .308. All have been sub-MOA out of the box. A 3.5 lb trigger suits me best.

 

[YodaVader]

Now I'm looking for something fun to shoot, accurate to punch paper to 300yrds or so (most common) with longer range capability not as high on the list for right now, but possible. I'm torn between 223 and 308

I have been there going back and forth between the two in various Remington 700s during an approximate 9 year span:

1- 700VS .308
2- 700VLS .233
3- 700P .308
4- 700LTR .223

All of the above were/are great shooting rifles and the one I eventually settled on - the 20" 700LTR (Light Tactical Rifle) .223 has been the most accurate factory rifle I have ever fired.

Remington produces the 700 SPS Tactical which is sort of like the LTR but with a Hogue stock and no barrel flutes. The 1 in 9" twist of the Tactical 700s in .223 allows heavier bullets to be utilized such as the 69 grain match bullets which should help long range target use.

Last year I decided to give Savage a try and picked up a 12BVSS , again in .223. Very nice looking laminated stock and stainless barreled action. The Accu-Trigger was a very crisp 2.25lbs out of the box. I went ahead and took the rifle to Sharp Shooter Supply and had one of their triggers installed anyway since I am used to aftermarket benchrest triggers on the 700s.

The Savage has a lot going for it - easily upgraded to another caliber (at least compared to the other brands) or to add a match barrel in the same cartridge. The best targets with the 12BVSS are impressive but it is just not as consistently accurate for me as my 700s. The barrel on this particular example tends to foul rather quickly. The barrel twist is also a 1 in 9" twist. This may see the installation of a Lothar Walther barrel later.

Finally the latest addition , just shot for the first time last weekend - a 700 SPS Varmint on sale $479 with el-cheapo 4X-12X scope and a $30 rebate! Oh yeah, did I mention I finally settled on the .223? Like the Savage 10FP this comes with a hideous toy-like plastic stock. Wasted no time installing the rifle in my HS Precsion stock. The rifle showed some potential for great accuracy , the last group fired was the best I had shot with any new rifle. This SPS Varmint has the 1 in 12" twist barrel so the lighter bullets like the 52 match is what I'll use mostly. I bought this with the intention of possibly having a "custom" built but it will still be fun to see how well it will eventually shoot with the factory tube.

 

[ShunZu]

We've left something out for BoogerB to also consider. The Rem 700 has the quickest LOCK time of the rifles that have been tossed around in discussion. Lock time is defined as how long it takes from trigger pull until the moment the bullet leaves the barrel. Old farts like me that aren't getting any more steady in our "golden" years (cough) like to get that bullet GONE before we shake the crosshairs off the target.

 

[shuter]

Sounds like you want a "tactical" rifle that could be used for deer possibly? Get a Rem 700P (Police), in .308. Sounds like that's what you're looking for. The ability to hunt big game, good to outstanding out of the box accuracy (recent review I saw showed a current sample that averaged just over .50 @ 100 yds for 5 shots - my own averaged .80"), a terrific HS precision stock (make sure you get the HS, not the Hogue rubber stock, for this use), with NO need for bedding (it has a full-length aluminum bedding block), tons of aftermarket goodies available for future expansion of options, etc.

Don't know if whether they're putting their new XC trigger into the P or not, but it doesn't matter. You can adjust the pull weight yourself, or any decent gunsmith can fix it for $50-$75.

TPS rings and bases will run $130 total, and you can put a Bushnell Elite 4200 Tactical 30mm 6-24X scope on it (about $575), and come in right at $1,500 total. These scopes are VERY nice - not in the league of Nightforce and above, but only half the $$$.

Just unpack everything, clean the bore, bolt the scope on, and go shoot sub-MOA groups . . . and PRACTICE.

Then, after you feel good about it, and the barrel's broken in, if you want to make it more accurate and user-friendly, send it to R&D Precision in California for Randy's "Maverick" package. For $550 (including return shipping), he'll:

Do a trigger job
Install his oversized bolt handle
Set back the barrel, recut the chamber to match specs
Re-crown
Square the receiver face, bolt, etc.
Lap the bolt lugs
Finish the entire rifle in your color choice of Moly-coat

Mine shot .80 before, and averages .50 after Randy worked his majic. Plus, it has a rugged metal finish, everything is squared and smoothed up, has a much improved bolt knob, and a very nice trigger. Well worth $550, I'd say. You can find him here: http://www.rdprecision.net/.

Have fun!

 

[TexasGunsGuitarsNCigars]

.270 .308 30-06 or .300 wm ??

After years o plinking and somewhat casual target shooting with a .223 black rifle, I'm considering my first bolt-gun.

My long range goal is a 1000yd target rifle.

Since I have a surplus .30-06 Garand, I already have lots of .30-06 laying around for plinking, and some un-used dies for re-loading. I think this makes a .30-06 the most practical choice for me. My concern is recoil. I'm not a big guy, and when I've fired friend's bolt guns in .30-06, I really don't like the recoil. Will a heavy, varmit barrel help?

.300WM looks like the best 1000yd choice on paper, but again, can I make the recoil manageable with a heavier barrel? Also ammo seems expensive for coming up to speed at 1000yds.

.308 seems good all around, but is a new caliber. No experienc shooting any other than through friends M1A. Have not shot it in a bolt gun. An accurized AR10 in this caliber seems like another option.(I know, not a bolt gun)

.270 also seems very available in many brands, but I don't know alot about it. Is it possible as a 1000yd rifle under reasonable criteria?

What about .243 or some of the other 6-7mm calibers?

FWIW, my shooting experience is a few service rifle matches, mostly hi marksman scores, occasionally an expert leg here and there, on a real , across the course range out to 600yds.

It took me about 1 1/2 hours and 20-30 rounds to bore sight my AR with a new scope, starting barely on paper at 50yds, ending with a fist size 5 shot group at 300yds within 3 inches from center of the target.

Any helpful comments or advice regarding choice of first bolt rifle?

Thanks.

 

[USSR]

Since I have a surplus .30-06 Garand, I already have lots of .30-06 laying around for plinking, and some un-used dies for re-loading. I think this makes a .30-06 the most practical choice for me. My concern is recoil. I'm not a big guy, and when I've fired friend's bolt guns in .30-06, I really don't like the recoil. Will a heavy, varmit barrel help?

TGGNC,

Weight is your friend. The above rifle, built with a Winchester action, Krieger MTU contour barrel, and McMillan A-2 stock, weighs a little over 16 pounds as set up. The load I use in it throws a 190SMK at 2900fps, and only requires about 30MOA from a 100 yard zero to reach 1k.

Regarding your other choices: The .270 is not a good choice for a LR rifle due to the lack of high BC Match bullets in that caliber. The .308 is an good choice, especially if you don't reload. The .300WM is a good choice, although you have to contend with that stupid belt on the case. The .30-06 is a good choice ONLY if you reload, as there are no good LR factory loads available. Hope that helps.

Don

 

[fgr39]

YodaVader, where did you get your 700 SPS Varmint for that price? Best I have seen is $549 before the rebate.

 

[Davo]

All of the rifles mentioned are very accurate, most shoot well under 1MOA.
Id went with savage because I can SWAP between .308 and .223. This allows me to practice cheaper, and also be able to go long range or go hunting.
With the money saved by getting a savage, and with the utility of swapping barrels, u can put more money into good glass-which is arguably more important then the rifle in long range shooting.

 

[YodaVader]

YodaVader, where did you get your 700 SPS Varmint for that price? Best I have seen is $549 before the rebate.

Not sure if they are in your area - Dick's Sporting Goods is where I bought mine. Their regular price is also 549.99 but they had the sale at $479 at least a couple of times this year. I missed it by one day earlier this year! This time , last month, I caught the sale right in mid-week.

I do not care for the green plastic stock but had a spare HS Precision. It also has a no-name 4X-12X scope which I might use on a 22. It is one of the better deals to be found on a heavy barrel 700 these days.