Press out vs Punch out

[rwilson37643]

I've been doing some rather intensive research, both literary and range time, of the merits and limitations of the 2 methods of presentation. Just so we are all on the same page, for the purpose of this thread press out means that the handgun is extended towards the target on a very high line and during extension the sights are aligned and the trigger press begins. Punch out means that the handgun is thrust toward the target as quickly as possible and reaches full extension before visual focus shifts to the sights. As of today I have fired about 500 round each way during the range portion of this study, and it seems that each method has it's area of dominance. punch out seems to work better at close range for the chosen target, but as range increases (beyond 5 yards for a 3x5 index card, 10-15 for an 8 inch plate for me) Press out works better. the range/target relationship is very similar to the range target relationship division between My ability to hit consistently without using the sights vs sight picture being absolutely necessary in order to ensure hits.

Has anyone else devoted any time to comparing the 2 methods?
If so, how do your results compare to mine?
Whether you worked with both extensively or not, what is you opinion of the pros and cons of each method?

 

[9mmepiphany]

I've found the Press Out results in faster and more accurate hits on target...but it is more about trigger management than the sights

The Press Out, when done correctly, breaks the shot as the arms reach extension. Most folks who punch out their gun also snap back the trigger...because the trigger finger is usually trying to catch up to picking up the sight alignment, causing a jerked shot...you might be able to get away with it up close.

I'd be willing to punch out a gun and snap the trigger at about the same distances I'd shoot from retention. My draw stoke naturally brings my gun up to eye level before pushing the gun out...why wouldn't I align my sights while they are up there anyway?

 

[rwilson37643]

The reason I am wrestling with is speed. using the punch out method and maintaining target focus I can draw and hit an 8 inch plate at 10 yards in an average of .944 seconds. shifting focus to the sights on that target at that range takes an average of .18 seconds resulting in an aimed shot in 1.124 seconds on average. unfortunately if I leave the range the same but change the target to a 3x 5 index card, shifting to the sights takes .39 seconds on average. this results in an aimed shot in 1.334 seconds. with either target my average first shot using press out takes 1.266 seconds. All of this information is with me using the Glock 19 and Blackhawk CQC paddle I am using for this study without any cover garment.
On the plate punch out is faster for me, on the index card press out is. The goal of this study is to simplify my training by eliminating one method or the other in order to focus my time improving the other, but it doesn't look like I am going to be able to do so. It isn't that big of a deal in competition, I can decide which to use in advance, but I would like to be able to eliminate that decision in a self defense situation.

 

[9mmepiphany]

I'm not sure I understand how your speed is affected between the two techniques...surely your arms don't move at different speeds depending on technique.

The only difference should be when you align your sights. It shouldn't be any slower to bring your gun up to your eye than to not. It is much like the old argument abut a SA trigger press being faster than a DA trigger press...on the first shot from the holster. There is enough time from the Retention Position to extension to both see the sights and to press the trigger.

Seeing your sights sooner during the drawstroke (press out) allows you to align them sooner, that allows you to break the shot sooner. If you see your sights sooner, you don't even have to wait for your arms to reach extension to break your shot.

I'd recommend learning to see your sights sooner. Once you have this skill, you can determine how refined a sight picture is required for each shot

 

[rwilson37643]

yes my arms have to slow down if I am to catch the sights during press out. my almost 40 year old eyes cannot pick out the sights and focus on them during quarter of a second between the gun coming into view and full extension.

 

[rwilson37643]

During punch out my right hand basically performs a full speed full power right cross picking up my support hang along the way. at the beginning of this movement my focus is very intensely on the part of the target I intend to shoot

 

[9mmepiphany]

my right hand basically performs a full speed full power right cross

So you don't punch straight out with your arm, but it describes a curve on the way out

That sounds worst than if you bowled it out...at least you'd be vertically aligned with your target

my almost 40 year old eyes cannot pick out the sights and focus on them during quarter of a second between the gun coming into view and full extension.

I'm 58 and the sights just appear in front of my eyes as the gun comes up...I don't pick them out or look for them. If you have to look for your sights during the draw, either your grip isn't correct or there is a fault in your technique

I'd recommend slowly working on getting them up in front of your eye, during Step 3 of a four step draw, so that that is where they always are when you bring the gun up.

 

[rwilson37643]

Looking back at old range books, Is seems that the difference may be directly related to eyesight. at 24 with 20/10 vision in my dominant eye, I could track the front sight even during recoil. Now, with 20/40 vision in my dominant eye, the sights are just a blur during recoil. At 24, shifting focus from the target to the sights took on average .11 seconds. Now shifting focus takes on average .32 seconds. the movement from the retention position to full extension took .2 seconds then and .278 second now. My eye's have slowed more than my arms with age.

 

[rwilson37643]

Quote:
my right hand basically performs a full speed full power right cross
So you don't punch straight out with your arm, but it describes a curve on the way out

That sounds worst than if you bowled it out...at least you'd be vertically aligned with your target

Cross not hook. straight line from retention to target

 

[9mmepiphany]

Take a look at the third link in my signature. It will help you see the sights faster

 

[rwilson37643]

I just went out and shot a series of 10 draws each way shooting at an 8 inch plate at 10 yards using an Ashley's Express 24/7 big dot sight equipped Kahr tactical .45. there was no real Time difference between the 2 methods with this gun and holster, and the press out method was slightly more accurate. I was able to pick up these sights much faster, unfortunately I don't shoot very well with them. It would seem that I may need to either start experimenting with different sights, or get glasses. before I can fairly evaluate the two methods. my Novak's may not be the best sight for me any more.

 

[9mmepiphany]

That explains part of it...it never occurred to me that you'd be using the XS sights. They lack lateral feedback unless you try to center the dot atop the center stripe/post.

It is the difference between seeing them (much faster) and looking at them

 

[Surf]

See what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get. Speed and accuracy is dictated by several things, such as shooter skills, distance to target, acceptable hit zone size, equipment etc...

If we are using a correct high draw stroke from the holster to say the number 3 position and a proper straight outward presentation with the muzzle to the target we do not need to think of the draw a stroke as either a press out or a punch out. They do not need to be exclusive of one another and be separate things. If greater prescission is necessary we will have a more deliberate presentation, more precise trigger control and see more of what we need to see to get the accurate hit that is required. Again as an example if we are closer with a larger acceptable hit zone our speed of presentation increases and our sight alignment and sight picture become more forgiving which allows the shooter to increase speeds. In other words we are seeing what we need to see to get the hits we need to get. Sometimes too many labels creates too much confusion. My draw stroke and presentation is virtually identical, however my sight alignment, slight picture and trigger manipulation and the speeds at which I accomplish these things may vary given the circumstances I'm faced with. Sometimes over analyzing or over complicating the situation is detrimental.

 

[Big Boy]

To boil it down, you're essentially trying to debate point shooting. Try both, do what works and is most effective for you.

 

[rcmodel]

Press out? Punch out?
It all sounds so crass!

How about:
Take your time, quickly
Front sight, and press the trigger twice.

rc

 

[9mmepiphany]

you're essentially trying to debate point shooting.

I thought that, but since he didn't come out and say it, I'll take it on it's face value.

I'm looking at it as the difference between seeing you sights on the way out or waiting until they are out to look for them

 

[rwilson37643]

It is all about seeing the sights, I can point shoot faster, but accuracy is unacceptable beyond 5 yards for smaller targets, beyond 10 for anything smaller than a small barn. but there does seem to be a direct correlation between my ability to point shoot at a target and which method works better for me on that target when using the sights. I don't think that point shooting is a good idea in a defensive situation, but it is helpful in some stages of competition. I would like to settle on one method, but the one that works most consistently, although it far outperforms the other on longer shots and smaller targets, Doesn't seem to work as well on big close targets especially if I am moving. Big, close targets in a dynamic environment seem to be the most important type from a self defense stand point. I've only recently (last November) been introduced to the press out method. All of my previous training the draw stroke was much lower. I really like the high retention position, and from that position the press out method makes sense, so much sense that I'm changing my drawstroke after 15 years and many tournament wins with the old one.

 

[rwilson37643]

This change, however, is not without it's problems. My meticulous nature leads me to treat said problems the way I deal with most problems. Collect as much data as possible, statistically analyze the data, then choose an appropriate course of action. I just posted here to see if anyone else had transitioned to the press out method and what their experience was.

as to over analyzing being detrimental, If I was stressed out about it it could be, but I enjoy the process.

 

[Ankeny]

If I understand the question, you are asking for the difference between pressing the pistol out in a slower, more subtle fashion, vs. punching or slamming the pistol to the end of the draw stroke with a passion. The best shooters that I have worked with do a combination of the two. They pick the sights up peripherally, push the gun out with a passion as it reaches chest/chin level, then slide the gun into position at the end of the draw stroke so it doesn't bounce all over the place.

In his "Secrets of a Professional Shooter" video series, Ron Avery compared the draw stroke to ringing a door bell as quickly as possible. One can lift their arm and push it forward with some speed, but in order to ring the bell you have to slow down so you can hit the button with precision at a speed that doesn't break the of your finger.

That said, on close targets I present the pistol so quickly the spent brass flies ahead of the line. Not saying that's right, just saying.

 

[Fred Fuller]

When there is time and room to get a sidearm to full extension, there's room for discussion as to which is "best." Especially on the one-way range.

When there is NOT time and room to get a sidearm to full extension, it's a different ballgame. How much do you practice shooting from retention?

 

[Surf]

Just to clarify I was not speaking about point shooting, nor did I take the conversation to mean point shooting. I am not a fan of point shooting in its original definition when the term was first coined, but there are variations of sighted fire and there are legitimate retention or contact defensive techniques that are non sighted.

In any case as I tried to explain above, I do exactly what Ankeny described in his post. I will either extend the muzzle to the target quickly, or extend in a more deliberate fashion depending on the situation that I am facing. Some presentations might look like what you have coined "press out" and some might look like a "punch out". Target distance, acceptable hit zone size play a factor. If more precision is needed or time and / or distance and my presentation is more deliberate. Up close, large acceptable hit zone and the presentation outward is much quicker. I do not give different definitions to a "punch out" or a "press out", they both are the same thing in my book. The target and the hit that I need to get will dictate the speed at which I do my presentation towards the target to accomplish the shot. In any case, no matter the speed, I am always attempting to pick up the front sight. If I am 3-5 yards and an upper torso sized hit is acceptable, perhaps just the front sight or indexing the slide of the weapon covering the target area is an acceptable hit for that situation. Now if I am 10-15 yards and I need to consistently hit a 3x5 card, well I will be more deliberate on the muzzle presentation and line my sights up better. No matter what the situation I am still looking for a sighted fire sight picture and I am trying to pick up the sights as the weapon is being presented towards the target. I don't wait for the muzzle to hit extension and then look for my sights. Again this goes for any speed. If one were to have eye issues, which I have, I would slow down the presentation speed to be able to start picking up sights as the muzzle moves towards the target prior to full extension. This also helps with defensive shooting when we may need to break a shot prior to full extension. No matter what IMO, our draw stroke and presentation towards full extension should remain consistent when we are able to do so. The speed at which this is done is dictated by the hit that we need to make.

See what you need to see, to get the hits you need to get.

 

[Doghandler]

Press out vs Punch out?

Save the Punch out for bare handed techniques. A handgun should be presented with the same smooth, deliberate, deceptive and dangerous technique as delivering or receiving a ball - pick your favorite sport. It's all the same.

How far the gun is pressed out is merely a matter of how much court you are playing with. Is it an underhand toss from shortstop to second base or a fast parabola from third baseman on the grass to first base? Fourth and short or third and long? Nine in the corner or off the rail into the adjacent corner?

The lesson here, gentleman is, (drum roll)... don't jerk your balls around and same for your weapons.

 

[Ankeny]

The speed at which this is done is dictated by the hit that we need to make.

I am from the school of thought that the draw speed should be the same...fast. The difficulty of the shot determines how much time I spend on the sights after the presentation. Are we saying the same thing?