Pressure signs - pictures

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Ah! Thanks, I missed that.

100 grain bullets! Now it's all becoming clearer. I'm beginning to wonder if the action on the primers is a result of a very short-lived pressure spike and not a prolonged pressure condition. (I'm thinking in terms of microseconds and not milliseconds.)
 
Dadgum good mystery! A shooting buddy showed me some .223 empties that ALL looke like #4 in the above pics. Now, he's assembled dozens of ar-15's so I knew his headspace was good. After some discussion, I learned he'd done some die adjustments, turning the sizer die down tighter. I asked if he has a case guage. Nope! During the day of shooting he and another buddy had FOUR case head seperations, tieng up the rifles for further shooting. A broken case extractor is on order.

I supplied my cartridge guage,(no longer made by frankford arsenal:fire: :mad: :cuss: ). All the remaining loaded shells were well below the low datum line on the guage. We now have sinclair case guages on-the-way from midway.

I also have the same problem with a savage .308. Low pressure loads,(at the recommended starting level in several loads), the primers all backed out. As the load progressed towards max, the primer apperance was more normal. But the rifle seemed to not like ANY max loads. Heavier than normal bolt lift, and primer flatening. Most disturbing was the apperance of a bright ring on the outside of the case about half way between the extractor groove and the base of the shoulder. NOT where the case head seperation normally occurs, just in front of the web. And yes there IS a "ring" on the inside of the brass!:mad: A case guage is also on the way for the .308.

I had the same thing happen 30 years ago with a .243, you'd think I'd learn what NOT to do!
 
Snuffy...Shoulder set too far back???

If your sizer die is adjusted for older ( work hardened ) brass, it will be adjusted too far down for softer new or once fired brass which will not "spring back" much if at all. The soft brass will stay where the shoulder was pushed to by the die where the harder brass will spring back out.

If you are using a mixture of brass and just happened to adjust it for the softer brass you could run into problems with the harder brass not chambering due to springing back. If you happened to adjust it for the harder brass the soft brass could get set back to far.

Just a couple of thoughts. :)


100 grain bullets! Now it's all becoming clearer. I'm beginning to wonder if the action on the primers is a result of a very short-lived pressure spike and not a prolonged pressure condition. (I'm thinking in terms of microseconds and not milliseconds.)

An excellent point as well.
 
If your sizer die is adjusted for older ( work hardened ) brass, it will be adjusted too far down for softer new or once fired brass which will not "spring back" much if at all

Sounds good. I was sizing some 300WSM brass that was fired several times. I check the head to shoulder measurements and they were way to long. I adjusted my sizing die down to bring them back into specs. I left the die set as is and sized some once fired brass, way to short. Could be your problem.
 
Using the pimer appearance to guesstimate pressure is an exercise in futility. What your primers look like has almost as much to do with the individual rifle than the load.

Casehead-2.jpg
 
Well the case guage arrived from midway. I checked a couple of shells that were sized ready to be loaded, they were all BELOW the low datum line on the wilson headspace/case guage. Looks like I'll have to back the sizer die out some to get it back where it belongs.

Walkalong, I see what you're saying. I'd say that now that I have the case guage, I WILL be checking cases EVERY time I load for that Savage. I'm also going to have the headspace checked for the bolt/chamber. The cases that were giving me trouble were once fired cases that were picked up at a DU outdoor festival here in Oshkosh. They were fired in every kind of chamber imaginable. So I screwed the die down tight against the shell holder to make sure they'd chamber.

I'm going to get a couple hundred new cases to start off from a known condition.

Snuffy...Shoulder set too far back???

Yup! That's what the case guage tells me!:what:
 
snuffy, you buy reloading components at democratic underground events?!? you're my new hero
 
snuffy, you buy reloading components at democratic underground events?!? you're my new hero
Today 03:00 AM
:confused: :eek: :what: Oh! I get it, damn, the coffee hadn't hit home yet! LOL. Nope DU, stands for Ducks Unlimited, but you knew that!? Each August they come here to show everybody all the new equipment, including letting anybody shoot a lot of different guns. There's everything from BB guns to .50 BMG.

Taliv, sorry for highjacking your thread. We kinda got off track here. Any new ideas on what might have caused your primer to back out? You are using a case guage, you're sure the chamber/bolt headspace is correct, so that leaves your observation that the case in question simply had a very loose primer that was dislodged either by centrifugal force, or by hitting the ground on the edge of the head. I hate mysteries with no conclusion, we need answers!:D
 
ducks unlimited, eh? i guess i've been reading the politics forum too much. i tell you though, the mental picture of a couple of guys tailgating at a Democrat rally, buying and selling bulk bullets and brass out of their trunks, has had me chuckling all day.

sadly, work is intruding on my thinking/posting time. so no progress. I'm trying to figure out how to get my pressure trace strain gauge system hooked up to an AR15. It would be incredibly useful at the moment, but I can't seem to figure out how to mount it since my barrel nut completely obscures access to the surface of the barrel over the chamber.

so my plan at the moment is to back off by 1.3 grains and try again. i'll probably have an update over the weekend.
 
I have been lurking on this one and believed that the primers didn't look all that bad from the pics...but then I got the point of the 100grn bullets.

Wow! That is a big, long and heavy projo for the .223 and I am wondering if this is the reason we don't routinely use them in the .223?

Needs a REALLY slow powder, comparatively, to normal bullet weights but the overlength projo intrudes into the case so much it takes up a lot of powder space. To get any useful ballistics the powder must be a bit quick for the bullet weight.....which could be causing a pressure spike that stretches the brass but doesn't last long enough to classically deform the primers.

Is there really anything to be gained with the ultra-heavy bullets in this caliber? I will stay tuned for the outcome!
 
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You can see the extractor mark and you can see the ejector mark.
This load was fired in my Bushmaster AR15
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=196305&page=2&highlight=.223
 
That pic from Mr. Clark IS high pressure, but these cases from his link are INSANELY HIGH PRESSURE!!
 

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That is not insane.
I have never been hurt doing that.
I have overloaded .223, .243, 25acp, 257 Roberts AI, 270, 32acp, 32sw,32S&WLong, 32-20, 7.62x25mm, 7.62x39mm 7.62x54R, 8x57mm, .380, 9x19mm,9x23mm,357 Sig, 38 sp, 357 mag, 38sw, 40sw, 10mm, 10.4mm, 45acp, 45Colt, 452/70, .410, and 45/70.
I have been emergency room time from pole vaulting, at football, baseball, mountain climbing, tree topping, roofing, motor cycle racing, bartending, clearing land, kissing some other guy's girl friend, and this week end.....running a grinder.

The mountain climbing IS insane.

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hey clark, were those backed out primers in that pic of yours from over or under pressured rounds?

i'm curious because there were a lot of people on the first page of this thread claiming that backed out primers were a sign of under pressure.

i'm personally not an expert on overpressure, since i almost never feel the need to go past published max, but I do load a ton of subsonic ammo, which is obviously low pressure and i've never backed out a primer until i started working with this 100g load.
 
Have seen the same on blank cases fired in our Ceremonial M-1
Garands. Indeed, low pressure, as one short cycled and a failure
to extract went with it. The new blanks have the neck mouths
crimped in the fashion of the old grenade (rifle) cartridges. The
neck folds were not opened and thhe CRIMPED primer was backed
out about 1/3.
Another sign of extreme pressure or multiple times used, is enlarged
primer pockets that will be felt when repriming if gages are not available
Experienced high pressure with minimum chambers, would not allow
bullets to release correctly when thicker brass in the neck area vs
thinner commercial brass was used.
Don't know why, but feel perhaps a low pressure problem. Burn rate
of the powder vs heavier than normal bullets?:confused:
 
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
This is a 25acp, 3.2 gr Bullseye, 50 gr, .875", WSP primer
This is ~ 240% charge, as much as will fit in a case, and then compress to half that volume with the seated bullet.
This is 200,000 psi per Quickload, but that means nothing with a straight wall case.
Fired in a Berretta 950
Notice how the primer flows back into the firing pin hole?
The firing pin hole seems to be the pressure limit on the three 25acp pistols I tested.
The same load fired in a Colt 1908 looks the same.


Beretta-mod.-950-b-barrel-o.gif

http://www.alliantpowder.com/reload...&gtypeid=1&weight=50&shellid=1010&bulletid=10


colt_pocket_2.gif

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the plot thickens!

so... a brief bit of context here: i almost always load my ammo slightly to moderately under-pressure. i very rarely load anything near max, or over. i remain confident the loads in the previous posts of this thread are a little hot. however, i've solved the mystery of the primer indentions.

when i shot those loads, i had roughly 1900 rnds through my upper and BCG.

after shooting those loads, i decided to get rid of some old stocks of ammo, which were my usual light 55g win FMJ target load (my aforementioned 24g of 2230c). i shot through them with no problems. mean velocity was a hair over 3000 fps.

now that those were out of the way, i started trying to mimic the M193 round, using M193 pulldowns and 26g of A2230-C. (by way of comparison, M193 is around 3150 fps)

with 10 rounds, I got a mean velocity of 3095 fps with SD of 37 and this:
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(the other 5 looked the same, and the middle ones are also pierced, but rotated slightly around so that the opening is to the right and rear)

light bulbs started going off, and I started investigating my firing pin, which, by the way, is one of those fancy TiN plated jobs. sure, enough, it looked a lot different than it did when I bought it. so I swap it out with a regular aluminum one, and get this:
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for those ten rounds, the chrony showed a mean of 3081 fps with an SD of 24. then I chrono'd another ten with the suppressor on and got a mean of 3097 fps with an SD of 25. all those primers looked perfectly normal.

here are some pics of the culprit. sorry i couldn't get my camera to focus any better on the tip.

and I'm pretty firmly in the "don't coat your firing pins with any crap" camp now. actually, i have been for some time, but it came with the BCG so i figured i'd use it. :)

as you can see, the end is very flat, with sharp corners (soup-can shaped), compared to a normal firing pin, which is rounded in the middle. this pretty well explains the shape of the primer indentions i was seeing. another interesting observation is that at 3000 fps, the pin was happily just making funny dents in the primers, but at 3095, it was consistently piercing them.

on the positive side, I finished the day by shooting another 250 rounds chasing cans around a berm and just generally amusing myself. in a couple weeks, I'll go back to working on those 100 grainers and see if i can't get the primers to stay in the pockets.

another interesting observation is that the plating seems to be coming off the pin further back, at the 2nd place the diameter increases. i've inspected the rest of the BCG and can't find any flaking anywhere else. of course, the rest of it is steel, not aluminum underneath the coating.

and yet another interesting observation is that the SD was much higher when i was piercing primers. and the max and min were higher and lower, respectively, than all the normal rounds.

MAX MIN
3137 3015 when piercing primers
3105 3029 normal, unsuppressed
3124 3053 normal, suppressed
 

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That rifle has a firing pin and or head space problem...get it to the doctor.
 
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