Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

Primers backing out?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Clifford, Mar 1, 2010.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Clifford

    Clifford Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arizona
    I've got a Winchester model 94 chambered in 30/30 and I've notice a little problem. The primers are backing out of the case when fired. First things first, this is with three different types of FACTORY ammo. I've purchased dies and shell plate to reload for this caliber but have not done it yet. As soon as I noticed the problem with the rifle I looked at the spent brass the previous owner provided and every case is the same way. Any advise on the problem with the rifle?

    Just noticed that I posted this in the handloading forum, sorry.
     
  2. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    48,352
    Location:
    Alabama
    Low pressure will do that, but you say they are factory loads. How much are they backing out?
     
  3. gdcpony

    gdcpony Member

    Joined:
    Aug 28, 2008
    Messages:
    767
    Location:
    Sherrodsville, OH
    Pics please. Might help someone figure this out for you.
     
  4. Clifford

    Clifford Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arizona
    I'll see if I can get some pics downloaded. They stick out .009-.010 past the face of the cases.
     
  5. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    48,352
    Location:
    Alabama
    Has the headspace been checked?
     
  6. Clifford

    Clifford Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arizona
    No, the rifle was made in 1979 but the bore and action show little use. I would think to much headspace would strech cases? The fired cases vary on length between 2.024-2.027.
     
  7. ReloaderFred

    ReloaderFred Member

    Joined:
    Apr 28, 2005
    Messages:
    5,913
    Location:
    Oregon Coast
    The .30-30 headspaces on the case rim, and I've seen several of them that suffered from excessive headspace, which will cause primers to back out. I would start by having the headspace on your rifle checked and then work from there.

    Hope this helps.

    Fred
     
  8. Clifford

    Clifford Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arizona
    That makes sense. I'll have to have my local smith check the rifle. Thanks guy's.
     
  9. Jesse Heywood

    Jesse Heywood Member

    Joined:
    Dec 9, 2009
    Messages:
    2,290
    Location:
    Kansas
    When you go to the smith take some of the ammo and empties. It might help if he has more pieces of the puzzle.
     
  10. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    It is quite common with Winchester 94's and other lever-actions, and is not necessarily indicative of excess headspace.
    There is a lot of places for the bolt to move in a rear-locking action just due to all the joints & length of the bolt to compress.

    It is more a pressure problem, or rather lack of pressure.

    A brass case will not stretch to fill the chamber until at least 40,000+ PSI pressure.

    The 30-30 runs 42,000 Max, and most factory ammo is loaded way under that.

    Your .45 Colt is SAAMI spec'd to 14,000, so you for sure will not get any case stretching, or even enough case slip in the chamber to re-seat the primers after they back out.

    Polishing the chamber will allow easier case slip, and result in the primers re-seating properly.

    IMO: It is a non-issue, and certainly not a safety concern.

    Still not convinced?
    Look at the headspace in a .45 Colt revolver some time.
    You could drive a go-cart through there!

    rc
     
    Last edited: Mar 2, 2010
  11. counterclockwise

    counterclockwise Member

    Joined:
    Jan 17, 2008
    Messages:
    176
    Be careful with those things...If those 45 primers push back hard enough, they can kick the hammer back far enough to cause the revolver to go full auto.:eek:
     
  12. jim147

    jim147 Member

    Joined:
    Jul 11, 2008
    Messages:
    344
    Location:
    Western MO
    The backed out primers make it easy to tell the 94 brass from the 336 in my bucket.

    jim
     
  13. Randy1911

    Randy1911 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 15, 2009
    Messages:
    914
    Location:
    Arkansas
    You need to re-read the OP. He is not shooting 45 Colt. He is shooting 30/30 Factory loads.
     
  14. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    30-30? .45 Colt?
    What the heck am I talking about? And where did that come from? :confused:

    I could have swore it said .45 Colt this morning. :eek:

    Still in all, what I said was still correct.

    Low pressure of a lot of factory 30-30 ammo, combined with rough chambers that prevent case slip re-seating the fired primers is pretty common in later 94's. It's really not that big a deal.

    If you reload, you can make up for it by headspacing off the shoulder instead of the rim.

    rc
     
  15. Clifford

    Clifford Member

    Joined:
    Feb 2, 2009
    Messages:
    628
    Location:
    Arizona
    I'll try my reloads this weekend and see what happens.
     
  16. UpTheIrons

    UpTheIrons Member

    Joined:
    Feb 28, 2009
    Messages:
    388
    Location:
    South-Central Texas
    Not the OP, but I have a similar question.

    I'm not the OP, but I have a similar question. These are from factory loaded cases, and the unfired rounds all have primers seated just below flush. I don't have a caliper yet, so I can't measure the exact distance, but they are no more than a couple thousandths below flush.

    These factory rounds were fired in a 1959 Winchester Model 94. I know it is 20 years older than the OP's gun, but I wonder if we are looking at the same problem. Clifford, is this what your brass looks like?

    Photo 1 is one Remington case (still rouge stained from the tumbler) that was loaded with a 150 gr Core-Lokt PSP, and two Hornady LeveRevolution that were loaded with 160 gr FTX bullets.

    4403188570_1277604321_o.jpg


    Photo 2 is the same cases with the Hornadys in the front and the Remington in the back.

    Question 1: Is this indicative of what you normally see with these rounds? Seems to be so from the discussion I've already seen.

    Question 2: Notice the Hornady brass has the shiny look through the web area of the case, then it looks 'rough' towards the front of the case. The Remington was already tumbled, so you can't see the same thing there, but the untumbled cases look the same as the Hornadys. Is that what you get with normal case expansion during firing?

    4402421891_9eca01a48f_o.jpg

    I haven't gotten dies yet, because I didn't know if this gun was still safe to shoot. If this is normal, then I'll add .30-30 to my reloading repertoire. Thanks for the help!
     
  17. twofifty

    twofifty Member

    Joined:
    Apr 21, 2007
    Messages:
    1,611
    A friend's 1967 model 94 (mint, with fewer than 30 rds through it) does the exact same thing to factory 170gr Win ammo - the primers back out as shown in the pics above. This rifle is a great and consistent shooter.

    I will suggest that he have the headspace checked before reloading those rounds.
     
  18. Kernel

    Kernel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,005
    Location:
    77 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality (Madison), W
    Next time before you shoot, wipe down your chamber with a cleaning patch soaked in mineral spirits or paint thinner. Even the smallest amount of oil inside the chamber will increase bolt thrust, which contributes to the primers backing out. A bone-dry chamber will grip the case better and help to minimize this phenomena. It may not be a 100% solution, but it will help.
     
  19. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    It still seems to me the problem is being caused by the cases not slipping back in the chamber due to low pressure, or a rough chamber.

    The photo in post #16 shows annular rings on the fired brass from a rough chamber holding the case in place under pressure.
    It also shows no primer flattening whatsoever, indicating very low pressure loads.

    Had the chamber been slick & smooth, or the pressure higher, the case would have slipped back against the bolt face and re-seated the primer.

    rc
     
  20. Kernel

    Kernel Member

    Joined:
    Jan 12, 2003
    Messages:
    2,005
    Location:
    77 Square Miles Surrounded by Reality (Madison), W
    rc, on further reflection I think you are correct (as usual). Low pressure is the likely cause of the backed out primers. However, I think you would agree, as a rule, having a clean degreased chamber is a good starting point for any range session.
     
  21. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

    Joined:
    Sep 17, 2007
    Messages:
    59,082
    Location:
    Eastern KS
    Yep. I do certainly agree with that.

    But I think in the case of a 94 Winchester, it may be counterproductive if primers remaining backed out bothers you.

    Without case slip or stretching, it is just gonna happen.

    rc
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page