Private sale - gun show hypothetical

[kkayser]

Civil liability

Cars and guns are registered so they can be traced. Wrenches are not, nor are hammers, knives, and crow bars. Furthermore you are responsible for cars and guns until you no longer own (sold it)or control them (stolen). There is not only the question of crime, but civil liability. Defending either of them will cost big bucks for lawyers, and your homeowners' probably will not cover you. Furthermore, you can never predict what a jury will do. Be easy on yourself, get a bill of sale signed by both parties.

 

[tyeo098]

I blatantly ignored it because it was superfluous to the conversation.

If it is superfluous to the conversation, why is it the crux of your arguement?

Need I reming you, you said:

Except one is designed to turn bolts, one is designed to kill.

The design is irrelavent, how its used is what matters.

Botox is synthetic jellyfish venom. It was originally designed by <insert creator here> to kill little fishies so jellies could eat. Its USED, synthetically, to make okay-looking woman look horrible. (Well, from what I've seen).

Like I've said, many times, its all in how its used.

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Cars and guns are registered so they can be traced.

Cars are registered for taxation purposes. Guns (in most states) are not registered at all. If they were, it would be to keep tabs on the owners, not for taxation purposes.

Furthermore you are responsible for cars and guns until you no longer own (sold it)or control them (stolen).

Correct, thats where the statement "I sold it" comes in to play.

There is not only the question of crime, but civil liability.
Defending either of them will cost big bucks for lawyers, and your homeowners' probably will not cover you.
Furthermore, you can never predict what a jury will do. Be easy on yourself, get a bill of sale signed by both parties.

What? They (aka the caps) still have to tie you to a crime given the minute possiblity that a guns you sold sometime in the past is actually used in a crime.
They can't just say that since you owned the gun at one time that you are now under arrest for muder. Thats not how the law works. They have to have at least reasonable suspicion to detain you, then probable cause to even arrest you.

Owning a gun at some point in the past that was used in a crime does NOT constitute probable cause for an arrest. You may get a good talking to, but once you say "I sold it, sorry, dont remember the guy." They are SOL.

 

[David E]

If it is superfluous to the conversation, why is it the crux of your arguement?(sp)

You somehow miss the blatantly obvious point that a gun is designed to kill while a wrench is designed to turn bolts. YOU superfluously added "anything can be a weapon, it's how it's used" crap.

A gun is, by definition, a deadly weapon. A wrench, by definition, is a tool designed to turn bolts.

We were not talking about how something is used or misused. Anyone that thinks a gun is as innocuous as a wrench is naive.

 

[kkayser]

How many times

Quote: Correct, thats (sic) where the statement "I sold it" comes in to play.

To which the police ask, "When and where did you sell it?" How did you meet the person you sold it to? "Now why don't you tell us what really happened?"

 

[kkayser]

SOL???

Quote: Owning a gun at some point in the past that was used in a crime does NOT constitute probable cause for an arrest. You may get a good talking to, but once you say "I sold it, sorry, dont (sp) remember the guy." They are SOL.

"SOL", really. Do you know how many people in Illinois were scheduled for execution and subsequently found innocent by DNA? Over 50%. In fact the governor was so shocked that he commuted all death sentences to life. Over a hundred, if I recall. The police and prosecutors are NEVER SOL. If they can't find the right person, someone else will do. It was YOUR gun. You had better be able to prove someone else used it!

 

[Elkins45]

If I'm selling a gun that has a 4473 form attached to me then I'm a whole lot more cautious about that sort of thing, but I also understand that some buyers are interested in a private sale precisely because they don't want Big Brother to know what they own.

My own personal level of comfort is that I will ask them to prove they are a resident of KY by showing me their drivers license. From that I can also get their name. That seems reasonable to me---someone who won't even let me know their name isn't someone I would want to sell a potato to, much less a firearm traceable to me.

I will confess that early in my gun buying/selling days I didn't do this and there are a handful of guns that I bought new from an FFL and then sold or traded to private individuals. I would be lying if I said it doesn't worry me just a bit that one day there will be a knock on my door with a policeman standing there holding a gun in an evidence bag.

 

[Agsalaska]

You somehow miss the blatantly obvious point that a gun is designed to kill while a wrench is designed to turn bolts. YOU superfluously added "anything can be a weapon, it's how it's used" crap.

A gun is, by definition, a deadly weapon. A wrench, by definition, is a tool designed to turn bolts.

We were not talking about how something is used or misused. Anyone that thinks a gun is as innocuous as a wrench is naive.

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Yea Im not quite sure why that is so hard to understand. I can only assume that those that dont agree with that may be familliar with the law but have never actually been in a court of law.

 

[tyeo098]

Quote: Correct, thats (sic) where the statement "I sold it" comes in to play.

To which the police ask, "When and where did you sell it?" How did you meet the person you sold it to? "Now why don't you tell us what really happened?"

Now, you can't lie to a cop (but they can lie to you) so if you honestly don't know (because you werent required by law to record the information) then tell them so. I am by no means suggesting anyone intentionally hinder an investigation. If you know something, tell the man. It'll send him away happy. If you dont, tell him so, "I sold that a few years ago, sorry I dont' have more info." And the gun "trace" stops there and they have to find another lead. Why don't we just register all weapons (and wrenches ) if you all are so concerned about tracing it to the current owner?

"SOL", really. Do you know how many people in Illinois were scheduled for execution and subsequently found innocent by DNA? Over 50%. In fact the governor was so shocked that he commuted all death sentences to life. Over a hundred, if I recall. The police and prosecutors are NEVER SOL.

Most of those people who were convicted were black males accused of henious crimes and that the convictions were motivated by racism back in the 70s and 80s. The entire premise is irrelvant.

If they can't find the right person, someone else will do. It was YOUR gun. You had better be able to prove someone else used it!

Uhm. No. The concept of innocent until proven guilty applies here. THEY have to prove YOU used it. You may be asked a few questions, you may even be arrested, but if have nothing more to tie you to the crime than you previously owning the object used to commit it the judge will throw that case so far out the window it'll hit the cop in the head who arrested you.

Yea Im not quite sure why that is so hard to understand. I can only assume that those that dont agree with that may be familliar with the law but have never actually been in a court of law.

I have experience with the law BECAUSE I've been in a court of law.
It helps, when they throw the book at you, to pick it up and read it.

Bottom line: Don't do anything extra-legal. Aka anything more than the law requires.

 

[David E]

Bottom line: Don't do anything extra-legal. Aka anything more than the law requires.

If it'll protect me legally or give me peace of mind, I'll do something more than the law requires, especially if its something as simple as getting the NAME of the guy I'm selling a deadly weapon to, regardless of what "advice" some faceless/nameless forum poster suggests.

 

[tyeo098]

If it'll protect me legally or give me peace of mind, I'll do something more than the law requires, especially if its something as simple as getting the NAME of the guy I'm selling a deadly weapon to, regardless of what "advice" some faceless/nameless forum poster suggests.

Well, to each thier own. We'll have to agree to disagree

 

[Warp]

It was YOUR gun. You had better be able to prove someone else used it!

That is not how our legal system works. You are innocent until proven guilty, and it is the government's job to prove you committed the crime. It is most certainly NOT your job to prove to them that you did not do something...especially when they have basically zero evidence that you did. (because you didn't)


I have sold 4 guns face to face. 3 of them were handguns. I have absolutely no clue what even the first name or place of residence (other than state) is of any of the buyers. 3 of those 4 are "attached to me" via a 4473.

I had no reason to believe they were prohibited from possessing a firearm, they were adults, and they lived in the same state as myself.

 

[Old Dog]

The police and prosecutors are NEVER SOL. If they can't find the right person, someone else will do. It was YOUR gun. You had better be able to prove someone else used it!

Much hyperbole and fallacious arguement in this thread. Private, undocumented sales of firearms are legal in most states, and the prosecutors and police are well aware of this fact. Our state law says that I, as a private seller, should make sure I'm not selling to a "prohibited person." How do I accomplish this? I politely request the buyer to show me his driver license (making sure he/she is a state resident and at least 18 years of age) and for my peace of mind (if I am the original purchaser of the piece) I ask to see his/her CPL, which tells me that at least at the time of issuance, the buyer was GTG to legally buy and own guns in my state. That's my due diligence. I then may later forget who I sold the gun to, maybe recalling only a first name, unless I deal regularly with this person. No big deal. I sold a gun pursuant to the laws of my state.

(Does the liberal use of caps and bold really make me more likely to believe your statements?)

I pretty much agree with Warp. I've never lost sleep thinking that some night some detectives will show up on my doorstep trying to link me with a homicide committed by a person using a gun that I once sold. Prosecutors don't like to try cases they don't think they're gonna win, and they don't typically introduce evidence that can't be strongly linked to the accused party. Detectives aren't typically as stupid as many of you people apparently believe them to be.

If you live in an area where the DA's office and your local PD/SO personnel have no understanding of private gun sales, you may want to give serious consideration into moving to a free state.

 

[oneounceload]

Originally Posted by oneounceload View Post
No, it isn't. (designed to kill).
Sorry, history does not side with your views.

Please CITE your proof of your allegation

 

[jblackfish]

I'm haven't read the whole thread but, whether you have to or not, it's never a bad idea to have a purchaser sign a statement. You might have two statements, one for the purchaser - most buyers will appreciate that.

 

[kkayser]

Been in court

I too have been in court as a witness about 10 times and as a juror twice. In one of the cases, the prosecutor had absolutely no credible evidence whatever. How the system is supposed to work and how it actually does are two different things. eg., Guantonamo And, remember, even of you win, I will cost you dearly in lawyers' fees.

 

[justice06rr]

^ "if you win"

That really depends on the case (and maybe the lawyer). If its a case that they have no credible evidence to accuse you, it shouldn't be a big deal.

Now if you're G. Zimmerman, thats another story. LOL.

With regards to selling a previous firearm you owned, the DA/LEA has to prove you used it in a crime. Previously owning a gun doesn't automatically mean you are the guilty suspect. I've no issues with selling any of my firearms w/o a BOS; I only request to see a state ID or CWL.