That has nothing to do with what I'm saying. If you want to maximize your chances of selling your weapon for the best price, don't ask buyers to do things that aren't required by law.
How to do a private sale in Maryland is correct and reasonable?
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RetiredUSNChief
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Apparently, this is the Maryland way.
There are essentially two legal ways to sell a firearm in a private sale in any state:
1. Strictly in accordance with state and federal laws.
2. In accordance with state and federal laws AND whatever additional stipulations one may add on top of that.
Notice the common denominator between the two.
People will quite often have a cow over those "additional terms", but in the end the seller can dictate whatever terms he wishes and it's up to any potential buyer as to whether those conditions are satisfactory for the deal. If not...then there's no deal. Personally (and professionally), all terms of any potential transaction are to be clearly established up front such that when the sale actually goes down, it's strictly in accordance with the terms at the time the deal was made. So if a copy of a driver's license was not a condition of the deal, the seller cannot then demand this at the time of the exchange; nor can the seller renege and not provide this if it was already established as a condition of the deal.
I really don't care what conditions the seller has, so long as everything is legal. If the conditions are not acceptable, and non-negotiable, then I'll pass it up just as I would if I didn't find the selling price acceptable. No big deal. And no harm in asking up front, either, because that's the nature of negotiation. But there should be no animosity on how a seller chooses to sell his own property.
Which means if I set the terms of the deal as the buyer showing up in clown shoes, dressed in a school girl outfit, 5 days of beard growth, a patch over one eye, and smoking two cigars (one out of each nostril) and the potential buyer sets the deal under those conditions, then he/she better darn well better show up in clown shoes, dressed in a school girl outfit, 5 days of beard growth, a patch over one eye, and smoking two cigars (one out of each nostril).
If the buyer can't meet those terms (like can't smoke because of emphysema, for example), then the buyer can ask to negotiate a different set of terms, such as a party blower noise maker in each nostril. If that's acceptable to me, and we set the deal, then I would expect the buyer to show up accordingly.
Elkins45
Member
Just to add a clarification to your clarification: the transfer must physically take place in your state of residence. If I went to an Indiana gun show and managed to find both an IN private seller and a KY FFL with a table set up, the KY FFL couldn’t do the transfer there. They would have to receive the gun for me, then transport it back to KY where I could do the paperwork and receive it in their place of business.
Elkins45
Member
I don’t understand. I sold a rifle to a THR member from Ohio. He met me at a KY gun store to do the transfer. The dealer gave me a receipt showing he had taken it into inventory, then charged the buyer the normal $25 transfer fee. Any private sale going through an FFL is by definition a three party sale because the dealer has to log it onto his books before disposing of it to the buyer. The dealer will always be a party in the sale, that’s what you’re paying them for.
Maybe you just need to find a different FFL to do the transfer.
N555
Member
It would appear to be one of those laws that might as well not exist, as it's widely disregarded, appears to be rarely enforced and is generally unenforceable.
Elkins45
Member
Is it worth the risk of a multi-year prison sentence and the lifetime loss of your gun rights? Because that’s what you’ll get if you’re caught. As is often said about the small chance you’ll ever need to defend yourself with a gun: “It’s not the odds, it’s the stakes.”
dogtown tom
Member
Can you rephrase?
We know.
That has nothing to do with what you are asking of the buyer.
To do a private party transfer in Maryland, you the seller must utilize a Maryland FFL to conduct the transfer. That FFL will complete the transaction with the buyer. Once buyer has handed you the payment, you are no longer involved.
Are you fearful that the FFL will steal the gun? If so, you already have the $$$ and its not your problem.
dogtown tom
Member
So is speeding in my neighborhood. But when they do catch one its a hefty ticket.
Unlike a speeding ticket, violating the GCA means if you are caught you will never own or possess a firearm again.
And you are flat wrong that they are widely disregarded or enforced. Being that you were wholly ignorant about the GCA '68 until today.........how the heck do you know its widely disregarded, rarely enforced and generally unenforceable?
While its true that very, very few violations of federal firearms laws go to trial, that doesn't mean people aren't charged or indicted and accept a lesser punishment.
If you frequent gun shows that have a large number of out of state visitors (like Wanenmacher in Tulsa) they sure as heck warn vendors and attendees about federal laws regarding firearms. And ATF floods Wanenmacher every show.
You need to have your gun show buddy's read this: Gun Show Guidelines
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efeng9622
Member
Let me say one more time why I need the sales contract and buyer DL license #, it is nothing to do with $$$ if the buyer already paid cash in full to me.
because I want a document to prove that my gun already sold this person ( should be real name) , if later this gun was involved a crime case , I can use the document . the FFL can move or closed business, although their bound book could be transferred to police department, but also can lost my case , I need spend long time to prove this gun was not belongs to me if I don't have a document.
NRA Endowment Member
Again, you're welcome to ask the buyer to do whatever you'd like. You just have to understand that many buyers don't want to give their personal info to strangers who have no business having that information. You have the option, as the seller, to ask the buyer to provide whatever information you'd like. The buyer has the option to consider your requirements to be ridiculous and to not buy from you.
No. The police would need to spend time proving that the gun did belong to you.
dogtown tom
Member
I understand your concern, but I think you are overestimating the value of the seller having any document that shows you sold something.
If you would like I can email you a document that shows I sold you the Hoover Dam, for cash, yesterday. That document is proof I sold you the Hoover Dam.
The ONLY documentation that matters is the FFL's record of acquisition & disposition. Thats the dealers "bound book". That and the Form 4473 the buyer will complete is kept by the FFL until he goes out of business. When he goes out of business he is required under federal law to turn over those records to ATF.
Your sales receipt just shows the buyer paid you $$$. It isn't proof that the firearm was lawfully transferred to the buyer.
Every year I'll have 6-10 firearm trace requests from ATF National Tracing Center. They were guns transferred by me to a customer. At some point that customer sold/traded/gifted that firearm and ATF will simply ask them who they sold/traded/gifted that firearm to. I've yet to have a customer tell me that ATF asked for their bill of sale.
As noted above, you do what makes you happy. But don't be surprised when buyers balk at giving a seller personal information that they are not required to give.
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efeng9622
Member
I totally agree with you , yes , this contract only shows buyer agree to buy my gun and already paid $$$. then we agree to go such a FFL ( name , address) to do transfer. but buyer should provide his real name . DL # is an option, but if he refused, at least he should let me see his license to confirm the name. I think having the contract is much better than nothing, In case something happened , it can help the police to invested. I will not be surprised when a buyer refused me , I already met one , but for me it is important that protecting myself than sell this gun without any paper.
I still have another method to avoid this problem, just let FFL do "three parties transfer" , he issues an invoice for me but he will charge us additional $40 ( total $60) , I have to pay that $40.
Thanks.
It won't help the police in the least. They'll go to the FFL, or the ATF and find out who the FFL transferred the gun to.
RetiredUSNChief
Member
A bill of sale is very much misunderstood by the layperson with respect to its presumed legal protection.
dogtown tom
Member
I don't think you do, otherwise you wouldn't have repeated the same requirements again.
Again, there is no requirement in Federal or Maryland law for the buyer to give you ANY information at all. Thats because the FFL is the one transferring possession to the buyer, NOT YOU.
Your receipt will not help the police one single bit. You'll just tell the police "I transfered to Big Tom's Guns, they had the buyer fill out a 4473 and did the background check". Thats it. Again, your receipt DOES NOT PROVE EVIDENCE OF THE TRANSFER OF A FIREARM.
I'm beating a dead horse. Your sales receipt doesn't prove anything, does not protect you in any shape, manner or form.
Literally, there is one difference in paperwork for what ATF calls a "private party transfer"......the dealer makes a X on Question 7. If he's charging you $40 extra you need to find a better dealer.
Thanks.
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efeng9622
Member
Creating a sale contract idea was from one of my other state's FFL dealer who suggested me to do, I think even it is useless, It doesn't do me any harm also, I have no reason to give up, as long as the buyer agree to give to me , this is a thing between us. I already done twice , nothing wrong happened, but thank for your help.
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Jerry M
Member
You can't do private sales any more. Pistols have to go through an FFL or the State Police. Rifles and shotguns have to go through an FFL.
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efeng9622
Member
No , we go through a FFL or state police , no matter what you call this.
thump_rrr
Member
If you sell a handgun that you had purchased new and filled out a 4473. Would you not be worried that it may come back to bite you if it was found next to a dead body?
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efeng9622
Member
Of course not, because you said that I already filled out the 4473. it can prove that I sold the gun. but when we do two parties transfer through a FFL. the buyer filled out 4437 or maybe 77r , I did nothing , so FFL didn't give me any receipt even he take the gun for 7 days. I sold one handgun on May just like that.
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Elkins45
Member
I’m confused. You don’t fill out a 4473 when selling a gun to a dealer unless you’re trading for a different gun.
If a dealer goes out of business they don’t just throw their old 4473 forms away. They have to send them to the ATF for storage. As long as you remember the name of the dealer anyone tracing that gun can have ATF find the form.
If you’re this worried about the liability of selling handguns then maybe you should stop selling handguns because I don’t think you are going to find many buyers willing to give you all the information you are asking for.
dogtown tom
Member
You are confusing "sale" with "transfer". Although they are often synonymous, there is a difference.
It is perfectly legal to do a private sale of a firearm in Maryland, but the transfer of possession must be processed by an FFL in Maryland.
dogtown tom
Member
Why do you care if the FFL gives you a receipt? He didn't buy it.
1. collect your $$$ from the buyer first.
2. Give the FFL your ID for his records.
3. YOU give the buyer a sales receipt.
4. Leave. You completed the sale.
What happens next is on the buyer.
1. After he pays you, he completes a Form 4473 with the dealer.
2. Dealer runs a NICS check.
3. If he passes NICS and the MD waiting period, he gets his gun. If he fails it's between him and the FFL as to the disposition of that pistol.
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efeng9622
Member
Yes i knew you are right, but when I give to the buyer receipt , should he give me his real name which I need to put on the receipt , right? but if he don't want
show me his DL , how do I know the name he gave is real ? the FFL I pick up for transfer said , he can handle the gun for 7 days ( right now I need to handle) he can give me a receipt because the gun will be wrote to his bound book just like he " buy it for temporarily ", but he need to additionally charge $40 .
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