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Problem with .30 Carbine reloads

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Mr_Flintstone, May 9, 2020.

  1. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    I struggled with where to put this, but since my problem only happens with my reloads, I’m putting it here. I bought a 1943 Inland M1 Carbine a few days ago. The stock was in fair shape, but the barrel and action were almost new; smooth action and the rifling had almost no wear. After a day of cleaning, I shot two boxes of PPU through it, and it ran perfect. A couple days later I reloaded my brass using Lee carbide dies, jacketed Armscor 110 gr bullets with 14.3 grains of W296 and a COL of 1.680”. Should have been a perfect load. I’ve run them through my Auto-Ordnance M1 carbine before, and they usually run fine. Every one of them went almost into the chamber and stopped. I would have to bump the charging handle on every one to seat them.

    After came in, I measured the overall length on my factory PPU, and it measured 1.650”. I then made up 4 dummy rounds 1.680”, 1.675”, 1.670”, and 1.665”; and tried them in my carbine. The 1.680 and 1.675 wouldn’t go all the way into the chamber without bumping the handle. They also had rifling marks after ejecting. The 1.670” dummy round would chamber most of the times I tried it, and the 1.665” dummy round chambered every time.

    It could be that the rifle has a short throat... maybe... I don’t know. My question is whether or not I can load my bullets to a shorter COL so they’ll chamber and fire without hanging up? How much pressure would build up by shortening the overall length from 1.680” to 1.665”? Could I maybe load starting loads of H110/296 and still be safe with this length?
     
  2. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Edit: I just made a dummy round from a once fired piece of brass. I squeezed the case mouth together, inserted a bullet, put it in the chamber and closed the bolt on both my Auto-Ordnance and my Inland. After slowly ejecting the dummy, the overall length of the round as it came from the Auto-Ordnance was 1.710”. The overall length of the round as it came from the Inland was 1.630”. That seems odd.
     
  3. bersaguy

    bersaguy Member

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    I'm not by any means an expert on 30 carbine, but a big fan of M1 carbines. But it sounds like not so much a short throat on your inland, but a long throat on your AO. Try making up a dummy round at 1.650 and see how that chambers. 1.680 is the max length for that cartridge, 1.625 is the minimum, if you do have a new barrel, no throat erosion, it may be at the short side of the spectrum 30 Carbine Case & Chamber - Copy.jpg
     
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  4. Whiterook808

    Whiterook808 Member

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    I have been using 1.680 for 110 grain bullets in my Inland with no problems. I know this isn't much help, but it's all I can add.
     
  5. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Update #2: I think I may have found the answer to my problem.

    I remembered having some old military .30 Carbine rounds, so I dug out an old WRA*45 piece and measured it. It measured 1.670”, but I noticed that the Winchester round had a much longer ogive.
    FE77614E-8D5A-41CE-B3A9-D94E91EEB43F.jpeg
    On the left is the Winchester from 1945. Middle is a Hornady with the same profile. On the right is the Armscor bullet I was using. Notice the more blunt tip. It is also .03” shorter than the Hornady. That means that it should seat to an overall length of 1.650” to have the same case volume as the longer bullet.

    I never even thought of the bullet shape as a problem. From now on, I’ll seat these Armscor bullets deeper in where they should be.
     
  6. biquer

    biquer Member

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    30 Carbine brass has a tendency to stretch.
    Since it headspaces on the case mouth, trimming after sizing might be needed.
    Cases that are too long could cause problems nobody needs.
     
  7. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    The bullet on the right isn't correct for the Carbine. I think you found your problem.
     
  8. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    My ‘43 Saginaw S.G. shoots better with the Armscor bullet than anything else. Even Sierra...

    But, that is relative. 10” groups at 100yds vs. basketball size groups.
    Barrel looks brand new, though...

    How’s your accuracy.? Could be that it needs to be finish reamed.
     
  9. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    These are the bullets that Armscor sells on their “Components“ website. It states that they are for .30 Carbine. Here’s their statement.
    ARMSCOR PRECISION, an ISO 9001 Certified Company, complies with the SAAMI, CIP and other military or customer desired standards or requirements.
    Clearly, though, they aren’t the same as what was originally used.

    Accuracy is excellent with PPU factory ammo. About 1.5” at 25 yards offhand. I haven’t tested any handloads yet as they were giving me issues.
     
  10. BigBore45

    BigBore45 Member

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    seat it deeper. .055" to minimum would not even raise pressure 5 %
     
  11. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    20200511_153313.jpg
    The Armscor bullets are still hitting the lands; even at 1.625".

    These bullets just don't agree with this gun.
     
  12. Whiterook808

    Whiterook808 Member

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    I suggest you try the Berry's plated bullets for your carbine. They work well in mine and are easy on the wallet.
     
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  13. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    I looked for those last night. They’re sold out everywhere. I’ve still got some Hornady 110 gr, a whole box of Hornady 110 gr half-jacket, and a whole box of 86 gr .30 Mauser bullets that fit my Inland. I’ll just use those Armscor bullets in my Auto-Ordnance only. They fit it just fine.
     
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  14. carbine85

    carbine85 Member

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    f
    I've had good luck with these
     
  15. MikeInOr

    MikeInOr Member

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    I have had similar problems with M1 carbines and reloads. After a whole lot of jacking around with the loads I put in a new spring set and then all was well. Do you know how old the springs in your '43 are?

    https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1004851153
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  16. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    I’d say about 77 years old... or at least about 50. As the story goes, most of these imported by Inter-Ordnance were sent to Ethiopia in ‘45 and left crated up. A few more were exported up through about 1960. At any rate, I’d say it’s due for a spring job.

    EEAAD18E-28DC-4B30-8058-50868C15B6ED.jpeg
    I made up some 86 gr rounds today, and the two on the bottom of the magazine didn’t feed correctly. Maybe because they were soft points, but a pull and release on the changing handle and they went in.

    On a related note, I’ve heard that many of the malfunctions that were common in Korea were the result of weak recoil springs.
     
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  17. GooseGestapo

    GooseGestapo Member

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    Your magazines are suspect too. The only “good” ones are WWII gi-spec or the recent Korean imports.

    My rifle shoots as well as with anything with some Lee 93gr cast RN, powder coated and loaded over 11.8gr of #2400. 100% function, too.

    The Korean malfunctions were due to under-spec ammo with very temperature-sensitive powder. Many lot#s of Korean era ammo chrono in upper 1,700fps range. Chill to -30degF and it likely won’t function the action.
    Full power is achieved with Win296/H110. H4227 is said to give good accuracy but my gun is ambivalent. It prefers #2400 with cast, 296/110 with jacketed. Original lot#’s were loaded with canister grade Win296. Later Korean ammo with canister grade lots of Win 630. Later Vietnam era ammo was was a little bit stronger, but not much. Tropical temps and clothing gave better performance for the little gun.

    For a <50yd plinker/blaster, it’s unexcelled... I managed to take a medal in the 2017 Talladega D-Day match.
    How? I don’t know!
    It won’t consistently hold the black at 100yds! From a bench!
     
    Last edited: May 11, 2020
  18. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    I went through all of the magazine stuff with my Auto-Ordnance. All my magazines now are either USGI or KCI (Korean) magazines. Later today I plan to temporarily swap some things out from my Auto-Ordnance to my Inland to chase down solutions. Really, though, it runs flawlessly other than the Armscor bullets, and the two rounds that didn’t feed yesterday; although the more I think about it, the lead was pretty soft on those noses, and may have hung up on the front of the magazine.

    UPDATE: The recoil spring swap with the Auto-Ordnance was a No-Go. The guide rod was the same, but the spring was a larger diameter; not much, but enough to cause problems inserting. While apart, I decided on trying other part interchanges. The slide was a close fit, but would require a little Dremel work to swap permanently. The lug on the slide was a little too snug to fit through the slide dismount notch without coaxing. The bolt, on the other hand fit pretty good, but I had problems pulling the bolt back far enough to engage the slide stop. I’m beginning to think that this rifle was carried a lot, but used “very little”. It’s dinged up pretty good, but inside is virtually new. Everything fits much tighter than my Auto-Ordnance. New springs are on the order list however.
     
    Last edited: May 12, 2020
  19. Mr_Flintstone

    Mr_Flintstone Member

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    Update 2: I made up a bunch more loads to test; Hornady 110 gr FMJ, 100 gr half-jacket, and 86 gr soft points. This time I used Hornady’s load data which called for longer cartridge lengths on the half-jackets and soft points. The FMJ all ran like eggs through a hen... perfect. I had one failure to feed with the half-jackets, and it hung in the magazine. I also had one failure to feed with the soft point, but it hung on the feed ramp.

    I’m thinking A few things apply here. 1. The Armscor bullet profile is a no-go for this rifle; which is a shame because they are cheap and available. 2. I need a spring job. And 3. The Korean magazines have sharp edges that “might” be causing the soft lead to bind. Springs have been ordered, and hopefully that will go a long way to fixing things up.
     
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  20. greyling22

    greyling22 Member

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    I'll admit I didn't read every word on this page so far, but at the risk of sounding condescending, you know 1.680 is a MAX oal right? Bersaguy helpfully posted the case drawing that shows a range of 1.625-1.680. trim your cases, load them deeper until they chamber. Also, as you identified, new springs may be in order. I know I should get some for mine....
     
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