I say crimp 'em. I use a heavy roll crimp on my .44 Heavy loads, and meduim to heavy crimps for my mild .44 Mag. loads. If you can't roll a crimp into your bullets, try a taper (or profile crimp as per RCBS). I've read of the primer pushing the bullet out of the case before complet ignition starts and the results were wildly varying velocities and squibs.
Problem with 44 Magnum with Unique
- Thread starter bambam71
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Thanks for the input guys.
The now powder option I've got covered with 1.
Crimping should be covered with 2
And my own WAG (primers) is covered with the third small batch.
Any other theory I should test on Friday?
Load a couple chambers with the original loads, fire off a couple of the specials, or crimped rounds, then look to see if the cartridges still in the chambers are longer than they were.
44 mag with 10 grains or so of Unique with a 240 grain bullet does not require a magnum primer. Speer and Alliant show that load with a standard primer. I've used that load, with lead and jacketed bullets, crimped.
44 mag with 10 grains or so of Unique with a 240 grain bullet does not require a magnum primer. Speer and Alliant show that load with a standard primer. I've used that load, with lead and jacketed bullets, crimped.
243winxb
Member
Neck Tension Holds the Bullet, Crimp helps a little bit.
Plated bullets will not take a heavy crimp. The 240gr is listed at 2 diameters. .429" & .430" What are yours??
243winxb
Member
Bullet Jumping Crimp
The base of the bullet would still be in the case mouth even if it jumped crimp. The bullet would have to lock up the cylinder to clear the case mouth. Photo shows a 250gr lswc bullet with its base sitting on the case mouth. 10.2gr of Unique is going to burn correctly as long as the base is in the case mouth. IMO.
[/URL][/IMG] As for air space in the cartridge, the 444 Marlin, with the same 250gr lswc bullet, has a starting load of 11.0gr Unique & shoots just fine.
The base of the bullet would still be in the case mouth even if it jumped crimp. The bullet would have to lock up the cylinder to clear the case mouth. Photo shows a 250gr lswc bullet with its base sitting on the case mouth. 10.2gr of Unique is going to burn correctly as long as the base is in the case mouth. IMO.
As for air space in the cartridge, the 444 Marlin, with the same 250gr lswc bullet, has a starting load of 11.0gr Unique & shoots just fine.
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Blue68f100
Member
I never could get Unique to meter worth a darn in my LNL-AP setup, using the PTX or the case activated. On a 5gr charge I was getting ±0.2gr and greater, I switched to ball powder. Even with that said your charge is high enough it should be fine. Even if it was 10% less on your recovery.
Is the primer hole blocked or restricted? Is the only thing not mentioned that comes to mine. Point the barrel up before you fire and see it it make any difference. If you have a small flash hole this could be a an issue.
Is the primer hole blocked or restricted? Is the only thing not mentioned that comes to mine. Point the barrel up before you fire and see it it make any difference. If you have a small flash hole this could be a an issue.
Lost Sheep
Member
Isn't this just what the internet is for?
I thank the OP for presenting the question. Sharing questions (and answers) is one of the really nice things is one of the greatest things this internet and these forums allow us.
I have used similar loads of Unique with lead bullets (and light crimps) in my 44 Magnum cases and never had a stuck bullet. So, I am stumped. I look forward to the results of the cleverly designed test cases the O.P., Bambam71, has devised.
What condition were the stuck bullets in when you removed them from the barrel?
Lost Sheep
I thank the OP for presenting the question. Sharing questions (and answers) is one of the really nice things is one of the greatest things this internet and these forums allow us.
I have used similar loads of Unique with lead bullets (and light crimps) in my 44 Magnum cases and never had a stuck bullet. So, I am stumped. I look forward to the results of the cleverly designed test cases the O.P., Bambam71, has devised.
What condition were the stuck bullets in when you removed them from the barrel?
Lost Sheep
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zxcvbob
Member
Stuck bullets == no powder, unless you are using something like 296 or H110 *and* loaded it too light (or didn't crimp.) I don't have an answer for how you got there. Maybe the powder was bridging in the measure.
243winxb
Member
Haxby said >
With 0 bullet pull, 0 neck tension, a cylinder throat .002" or more larger than bullet diameter, with a cylinder/barrel gap at maximum of .009" you may get a bullet stuck in the barrel with powder in the case. But if these conditions are met, the remaining rounds in the cylinder should jump crimp and keep the cylinder from turning when one of the rounds fired normally. With some Super-Vel thin walled brass, i had bullet jump, locking up the cylinder with the remaining rounds. This was with W296 powder. NO bullets were stuck in the barrel. I have seen inline muzzle loaders, using smokeless powder, with loose fitting sabots just push the bullet out of the barrel, falling a few feet in front of the muzzle. All smokeless powder needs compression to burn, black powder does not.
Yes, very true.
With 0 bullet pull, 0 neck tension, a cylinder throat .002" or more larger than bullet diameter, with a cylinder/barrel gap at maximum of .009" you may get a bullet stuck in the barrel with powder in the case. But if these conditions are met, the remaining rounds in the cylinder should jump crimp and keep the cylinder from turning when one of the rounds fired normally. With some Super-Vel thin walled brass, i had bullet jump, locking up the cylinder with the remaining rounds. This was with W296 powder. NO bullets were stuck in the barrel. I have seen inline muzzle loaders, using smokeless powder, with loose fitting sabots just push the bullet out of the barrel, falling a few feet in front of the muzzle. All smokeless powder needs compression to burn, black powder does not.The bullets showed the marks of burning on the bottom but not more than if you have no powder at all in it and the bullet is just driven by primer. Now you mention it I seem to remember that they where even less burned. And I do remember seeing bright yellow bits and pieces.
Is there anything that could turn powder bright yellow?
The shells where cleaned in a sonic cleaner and I dried them in a towel by shaking them just before reloading. What if the ones that failed had a drop of water left in them? Couldn't this explain why I do have powder but it will not fire? And a second question here: I've put the powder that I removed from the testbullets back in the powder measure, if the powder was wet and has the chance to dry will the powder burn normally?
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Haxby said > Yes, very true.
All I can say is that it takes 2-3 healthy blows to remove the bullets with the kinetic bullet puller.
Well I am curious to know if the pulled charges weighed 10 grains or less. I have to believe that you had squib loads because 8.5 grains Unique with a 240 L goes about 1000 fps in my 44 Magnum.
I am in the camp that you have a powder drop issue. If you dispense exactly 10. 2 grains into your calibrated powder scale (did you verify the display with check weights?) put a bullet on those charges, you should get one heck of a bang when you pull the trigger.
If the powder was wet in the case it will be clumpy in the pulled rounds.
Powder will function once dried. Per a Naval Insenstive Munitions expert, the shelf life is reduced after exposure to water.
I had been given misleading information on why my surplus IMR 4895 was going bad. The source said "improperly washed" powder left nitric acid in the powder. Well he was wrong. Nitric acid is a result of old deteriorating powder outgassing NOx and I have no idea where he got the idea of "improper washing" at manufacture. Still, when I did not know better, I poured de ionized water into a jub of 8 lbs of IMR 4895. I left that powder in water for months, maybe a year. I would periodically shake the jug to get good mixing. In time I decanted and dried the stuff and it went bang! Never chronographed the stuff and soaking the powder in water did not stop the powder from deteriorating. Eventually I poured the stuff out on the lawn. Wish I had chronographed some rounds as it would have been interesting to compare before and after.
Only later when I ran into a Naval Insensitive Munitions expert did I get the true skinny on powder aging.
I wash rifle cases all the time. They are also decapped, if you washed your cases with the primers in and did not dry the primer pockets, well something weird could happen. I use heat to dry them. I will put them out in direct sunlight in the summer and that will dry them completely. In the winter I put them in the oven or toaster oven on low. Major Namamora in his book "Handloading" said not to get cartridge brass hotter than 428 F. My oven at low does not get above 212. Takes about 20 minutes and I remove the cases.
I am in the camp that you have a powder drop issue. If you dispense exactly 10. 2 grains into your calibrated powder scale (did you verify the display with check weights?) put a bullet on those charges, you should get one heck of a bang when you pull the trigger.
If the powder was wet in the case it will be clumpy in the pulled rounds.
Powder will function once dried. Per a Naval Insenstive Munitions expert, the shelf life is reduced after exposure to water.
I had been given misleading information on why my surplus IMR 4895 was going bad. The source said "improperly washed" powder left nitric acid in the powder. Well he was wrong. Nitric acid is a result of old deteriorating powder outgassing NOx and I have no idea where he got the idea of "improper washing" at manufacture. Still, when I did not know better, I poured de ionized water into a jub of 8 lbs of IMR 4895. I left that powder in water for months, maybe a year. I would periodically shake the jug to get good mixing. In time I decanted and dried the stuff and it went bang! Never chronographed the stuff and soaking the powder in water did not stop the powder from deteriorating. Eventually I poured the stuff out on the lawn. Wish I had chronographed some rounds as it would have been interesting to compare before and after.
Only later when I ran into a Naval Insensitive Munitions expert did I get the true skinny on powder aging.
I wash rifle cases all the time. They are also decapped, if you washed your cases with the primers in and did not dry the primer pockets, well something weird could happen. I use heat to dry them. I will put them out in direct sunlight in the summer and that will dry them completely. In the winter I put them in the oven or toaster oven on low. Major Namamora in his book "Handloading" said not to get cartridge brass hotter than 428 F. My oven at low does not get above 212. Takes about 20 minutes and I remove the cases.
Thanks for the clarification on the wet powder.
The powder from the pulled cartridges looked normal. Not clumpy at all. The shells where decapped before cleaning.
But you brought me onto something with that wet primer pockets. Maybe powder has not much problem with humidity but what about primers.
I made the following test: put a drop of water on a primer, seat the primer in an empty shell, load a bullet. Normally squibs go fully into the barrel and one hears the bang. Not with this, all thats audible was a faint blobb and the bullet did not make it into the barrel but sits inbetween.
I think this is the most likely cause. Wet primer pockets did prevent primer from properly igniting the powder.
The powder from the pulled cartridges looked normal. Not clumpy at all. The shells where decapped before cleaning.
But you brought me onto something with that wet primer pockets. Maybe powder has not much problem with humidity but what about primers.
I made the following test: put a drop of water on a primer, seat the primer in an empty shell, load a bullet. Normally squibs go fully into the barrel and one hears the bang. Not with this, all thats audible was a faint blobb and the bullet did not make it into the barrel but sits inbetween.
I think this is the most likely cause. Wet primer pockets did prevent primer from properly igniting the powder.
Krogen
Member
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- Dec 29, 2010
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I suspect you've hit on it with the thought of damp cases. Way back when I started handloading, a pal convinced me to clean cases in a solution of laundry soap and water. Then to dry them on a cookie sheet in a warm (not hot) oven. In my haste, I didn't get the cases completely dry. I got over 50% failure-to-fire. In my case, using 296, it makes sense since 296 is rather difficult to ignite. In your case, Unique isn't tough to ignite and dampness might just result in squibs compared to my complete failures with 296.
ironhead7544
Member
I have used much less Unique in an 18 inch RIFLE barrel with 300 gr cast bullets in the 44 Magnum. I thinks it is a primer issue, probably. I recently had a similar problem with some older primers in some 44 Special and 44 Magnum loads.
I have also used very much less Unique in a Bulldog 44 Special with 240 gr bullets. Just the tip of the SWC stuck in a 2x4.
If you cleaned the cases in a tumbler you may have had blockage in the flash holes. I poke out every one of mine before loading.
I have also used very much less Unique in a Bulldog 44 Special with 240 gr bullets. Just the tip of the SWC stuck in a 2x4.
If you cleaned the cases in a tumbler you may have had blockage in the flash holes. I poke out every one of mine before loading.
Ok guys, back from the range. And you will not believe it, not a single failure. All bullets did at least make it out of the barrel with some speed although I had two instances that where probably close ones.
So I think there is two things here. The most probable cause is humidity. And apparently when left alone this cures itself at least to some extend. The rounds where stored in a relatively warm but very very dry room for more than a week and that seemingly cured the failures.
All tree test scenarios worked flawlessly, even all untouched rounds worked flawlessly.
So I think there is two things here. The most probable cause is humidity. And apparently when left alone this cures itself at least to some extend. The rounds where stored in a relatively warm but very very dry room for more than a week and that seemingly cured the failures.
All tree test scenarios worked flawlessly, even all untouched rounds worked flawlessly.
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