Problems sighting in

[The Grand Baboon]

Using a brand new MP15-22 and Leupold VX-I, I can't seem to sight the gun in at all. I get the group close to where I want it to be (@25 yards), adjust a tiny bit, then find the group somewhere else. Sometimes I'll adjust the windage and find that the rifle is hitting lower or higher (though this may be due to some flexing of the stock, I've posted elsewhere on these forums about that). The inverse can also happen when the elevation is adjusted and the impact seems to have changed in relation to the windage.

 

[gamestalker]

I would check to see if the scope is mounted level first of all. If it is not level adjustments to windage can effect elevation, and elevation adjustments can effect windage.
Another possible cause could be loose or bad rings/bases.
Also, how are you benching the rifle? Are you using bags or a decent shooting device such as a lead sled or other type of rest. If your not nearly perfectly secure regarding the rest your shooting off of, it will destroy any attempt to sight in accurately to the degree you'll never figure out where it is truely sighted in to.

 

[The Grand Baboon]

I'll tighten down the rings as much as I can. They're Burris "high" weaver style rings with a torx nut to tighten down the tube. Also, I am using a benchrest.

 

[Al Thompson]

Hard to tell with out being there. Couple of questions:

What brand ammo? .22LR can have major issues when switching from one to another. You may just have some ammo that your rifle dislikes. Try shooting ten or fifteen rounds for your groups.

Is your scope mounted to the receiver only? I note that on mine, it's easy to get the front ring onto the "hand-guard" and suspect that may give poor results.

 

[bigfatdave]

so what does it do with the iron sights?

 

[M-Cameron]

a few things could cause this.....

1) now i dont want to question your skill or knowledge.......but make sure that when you are adjusting the windage....... are are adjusting the right knob.........

and make sure you are shooting from a rest.......you cant really accurately zero a rifle in any other position

now im going to assume you at least know what you are doing and are doing both of those correctly.....

2) check your ammo........if you are shooting junk ammo, you are going to get junk results.....try a few different brands and see if you get the same result......remember, you get what you pay for.

3) make sure everything is tightened down snuggly, and that nothing that isnt supposed to move isnt.

4) know what to expect from your rifle accuracy wise.....its not a match gun, so if you arent getting 1 hole groups, its to be expected.


5) if all else fails, let someone else try shooting it and see if they have the same problem....often times its just a brain fart and are missing something someone else will pick up.

 

[mrbro]

You probably know some of this already, but just to be sure...

If you are on paper at 25 move out to 100. The parallax at 25 could be causing you some trouble. Throw a big hunk of paper down there and shoot 3 shots to see where they land, then start adjusting. The shots need to be from a good solid rest. Rest the forearm on the rest, not the barrel and not the magazine. Backpack, rolled up floor mat from the car, cooler, almost anything will do. Remember that the adjustments are relative to the direction you want the group to move.

If there is a problem with the scope mounts you will see it even without making adjustments, the shots will just be random. At a gun club we recently joined we were having a @^*& of a time getting the rifles sorted out until we figured out that the 100yd berm is actually at 130 and the 200yd berm is at 170. At least the 300 is where it's supposed to be.

A friend that started shooting with us had a BDL in 30-06 he was ready to toss in the dumpster because it just wouldn't shoot. A little tinkering and we discovered his rings were a POS. New rings and he is lovin' it now.

 

[slowr1der]

Welcome to the world of Leupold VX-I's. I've found the friction adjustments to be horribly inaccurate. I've also had problems with both of the ones I've had not holding zero after a little use, as well as another friend that bought one and his wouldn't hold zero right out of the box.

So, is it staying zeroed where it shoots, or is it moving around without making any adjustments.

Also maybe have someone else shoot it and see how it does for them. If it still does the same it sounds like it's time for a trip into Leupold.

 

[gamestalker]

Here is a mistake I've seen happen before, and please don't be offended. I've seen scopes mounted in the wrong clock position. The windage in the elevation position, and elevation in the windage position?

 

[popper]

Did you tape the scope before mounting? Don't over tighten the rings on the scope. I had a 22 and a 30-30 that had a similar problem. Scope would slide and rotate in the rings. Put some double sided tape and the problem went away. Actually had problems with the rings moving on the 22, a couple drops of JB on the receiver fixed that. The high rings make it worse, more leverage on the scope. Also, tap the adjustment after moving it to settle it.

 

[slowr1der]

If you have to put tape inside of your rings, it's a good sign that you need better quality rings.

That being said, I have taped the inside of the rings in one instance, not because I had issues, but just because I had seen others do it and wanted to see if it made a difference. It didn't and with any halfway decent set of rings, it shouldn't be needed.

I will say that I often mark the scope tube against the ring with a silver sharpie on the bottom. That way I can see if it ever slides or moves in the rings. Later if I ever remove the scope, I can use Krud Cutter cleaner and it takes the sharpie right off, but without using a similar cleaner, the sharpie doesn't seem to wear off, so you don't have to worry too much about that.

As for the rings sliding on .22's with the rimfire rails, this is a common problem and you found one of the solutions. Another is to peen the rail right before and after where the rings connect. Either one seems to work, but this is a reason I hate the rimfire style rails, and I don't understand why any company would make them onto the gun as some do. I much prefer either a Weaver style base with cross bars, so it can't slide, or the dovetail style bases.

 

[The Grand Baboon]

Ok, going to answer a couple questions in a series here. But as a restatement, it's a Leupold VX-I on a S&W MP15-22.

1. My group sizes are great, I'm using 50 or 60 year old Super X 40 grain ammunition. Here's an example of my standard group size at 25 yards.


2. The scope is mounted on the receiver only, and yes, it is mounted correctly. I am also adjusting the dials in the correct direction. I also do not need tape inside the rings, the scope is solid.

3.

Welcome to the world of Leupold VX-I's. I've found the friction adjustments to be horribly inaccurate. I've also had problems with both of the ones I've had not holding zero after a little use, as well as another friend that bought one and his wouldn't hold zero right out of the box.

When I first started using the scope I was like "$(*&#? Why isn't it clicking?" I thought it was broken (I like clicking).

Basically, I'm getting good groups, but they just seem to be floating around the target. Conclusion: Time to return the scope and get a new one.

 

[popper]

I actually JB'd some rolll-pins to the rail. I can remove the scope and put it back on, it retains zero. The tape is to prevent movement without over-torqueing the clamps or reaming the rings.

 

[gamestalker]

Popper, was that 22 a Marlin model 60, they have an inherent design flaw with groved reciever? I had the same problem with 2 Model 60's and tried epoxy and other adheasives with no improvement. Finally I used some friction tape, they haven't moved since.

 

[mrbro]

If you're getting good groups but the groups seem to move around the target, you may be bumping into the parallax. A parallax issue will show up if your head is not placed in exactly the same position each time. With a semi .22, it may show up as group related because your head tends to stay put for each group/mag. Sight thru the scope at the target and align it to your aiming point, now move your head slightly up, down, left, right without moving the rifle. If the center of the reticle appears to move you have a parallax problem. Most centerfire scopes are set at the factory for 100-150 yds and most rimfire scopes are set to 50 yds. A scope with an adjustable objective will allow you to set it manually.

 

[M-Cameron]

If you're getting good groups but the groups seem to move around the target, you may be bumping into the parallax. A parallax issue will show up if your head is not placed in exactly the same position each time. With a semi .22, it may show up as group related because your head tends to stay put for each group/mag. Sight thru the scope at the target and align it to your aiming point, now move your head slightly up, down, left, right without moving the rifle. If the center of the reticle appears to move you have a parallax problem. Most centerfire scopes are set at the factory for 100-150 yds and most rimfire scopes are set to 50 yds. A scope with an adjustable objective will allow you to set it manually.

thats my thinking as well......if there was a mechanical problem with the scope, you wouldnt be getting groups at all.

 

[Picher]

When it's a mechanical problem with a scope's reticle, it often shows either vertical or horizontal stringing, usually flyers outside of a group.

Small groups, but wandering POI suggests, as others have mentioned, parallax factory-adjusted for a different distance, usually 100-150 yards. The other possibility is that you may be holding the rifle a bit differently on the rest from magazine to magazine. Consistency in position, pressure on the stock, etc. can move groups around on paper. It's very important to rimfire shooting that holds are very consistent, since, due to relatively low velocity, the rifle recoil rearward slightly before the bullet exits the barrel.

 

[The Grand Baboon]

Well, the parallax seems to be the best solution to my problem. Thanks guys. The scope has already been returned to the store though. Until I can decide on a new scope (or red dot, I've never tried one of those) I'm sticking with the open sights.

Again, thanks.