Problems trying get proper crimp in 9mm

[Swampman]

I wouldn't worry too much about slight crimping marks left on your cast bullet reloads.

The attached pic shows jacketed and plated bullets pulled from ammo loaded by either commercial manufacturers or government arsenals. My apologies that there are no cast or swaged lead bullets, but when I find those, they're generally thrown into the casting pot as soon as I pull 'em.

As far as I can tell, none of the projectiles pictured were manufactured with any sort of cannalure, the "rings" on the bullets all appear to have been formed during the crimping process.

Keep in mind that this ammunition was loaded by professionals with arsenal quality equipment, presumably using cases and bullets not only from the same manufacturer, but more than likely from the same production lots. Jackets appear to be made of everything from almost pure copper to mild steel, all of them much harder and more resistant to deformation than the lead and paint of your oversized handloaded lead bullets.

If major manufacturers aren't able to keep from pressing makeshift cannalures into their own properly sized jacketed bullets while using their own cases, what chance do you have using your much softer, oversized bullets and unsorted cases from various manufacturers?

Worry about reliability and accuracy, performing destructive testing to uncover "problems" will just eat into your loading and shooting time.

Putting lots of rounds downrange while striving to make each shot a learning experience will do a lot more for your accuracy than hours spent agonizing about a problem that doesn't even exist.

If little pseudo crimps in the sides of loaded bullets indicate poor quality, everyone better toss out all their Speer Gold Dots because they're one of the worst offenders among current production ammo.

 

[Bozrdang]

That's some really good food for thought, Swampman. Definitely makes rethink worrying about bullet deformation. I'll just keep shooting and testing and see what ultimately works best. In the mean time I'm not going to stress over the crimp marks.

 

[Walkalong]

It doesn't take much to leave a "mark" on the bullet, especially if the case mouth isn't chamfered (Which I don't do with auto brass), and that is different than an indentation from over crimping.

I would bet a large percentage of reloaded ammo in auto calibers is "crimped" more than needed for function. Someone posted a pic of one the other day. Way, way over crimped.

But hey, if they meet their expectations, I guess it's all good.

 

[Bozrdang]

Someone posted a pic of one the other day. Way, way over crimped.

In this thread?

 

[billspencer1956]

In this thread?

Grabbed two spent cases and new bullets to show the difference between roll and taper crimp. Note after discharging the bullets still will not drop into the case.

One other point we have not discussed is crimping roll style without a groove will cause jacket seperation. Picture shows 38 S&W and 9x21

 

[mmorris]

From the MidwayUSA reviews of the 20 hole gauge you cited:

This is a really great piece of kit. It's easy to check an entire mags worth of ammo at one go.

Just a word of warning though, the spec for the chamber is really tight. This is fantastic for making sure, especially with ammo destine to be used for a match, will run cleanly through your gun.

But, a lot of those that fail on this one are a clean pass on my dillon single case gauge. I just segment out those that fail on the AA as practice ammo.

This reviewer seems to think the gauge is too tight.
It seems the only advantage in the 20 hole is it is faster to check than a single hole gauge.

I like my Wilson gauge.

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by: billspencer1956
"9mm cases are tapered, after firing they size to the chamber and end up slightly smaller then the chamber after extraction. Chambers are tapered too just like the case. Resizing after firing is not required if the bullet does not drop freely down in the case. Resizing sometimes causes the case to be very small for .356 bullets."

I was hoping that this would be addressed by someone with better writing skills and more tact, but since it hasn't been...

Resizing after firing is not required if the bullet does not drop freely down in the case.

This is fine advice if you're loading for a low pressure, single shot Schuetzen rifle.
In a cartridge intended for a semi automatic pistol, it's a recipe for disaster.

Just because a bullet doesn't drop freely into a case under the influence of gravity doesn't mean that it's going to stay in place while being slammed into the feed ramp on its way into the chamber. If the bullet gets shoved back into the case, it effectively decreases the volume of the chamber and can raise pressures drastically, sometimes high enough to destroy the gun (and any human bits that get in the way of flying pistol chunks).

Resizing sometimes causes the case to be very small for .356 bullets

Unless the sizing die has been relieved or you have extremely thin case walls, the case will ALWAYS be too small for a .356 bullet, that's why they make oversize expanders and the "M" die.

 

[billspencer1956]

I was hoping that this would be addressed by someone with better writing skills and more tact, but since it hasn't been...

This is fine advice if you're loading for a low pressure, single shot Schuetzen rifle.
In a cartridge intended for a semi automatic pistol, it's a recipe for disaster.

Just because a bullet doesn't drop freely into a case under the influence of gravity doesn't mean that it's going to stay in place while being slammed into the feed ramp on its way into the chamber. If the bullet gets shoved back into the case, it effectively decreases the volume of the chamber and can raise pressures drastically, sometimes high enough to destroy the gun (and any human bits that get in the way of flying pistol chunks).

Unless the sizing die has been relieved or you have extremely thin case walls, the case will ALWAYS be too small for a .356 bullet, that's why they make oversize expanders and the "M" die.

Standard loading practice is to reduce case size not to increase case size with a m-die. If case internal diameter is larger then the bullet it will allow the bullet to fall in the case until it is supported by the powder. Overall lengeth would be off. Case internal diamter has to be smaller then the bullet. 9mm cases are tapered
but bullets are straight walled. Tendency is to crimp to much causing bulges lower in the case. This is what keeps a round from fully seating in the chamber.

 

[Walkalong]

Resizing after firing is not required if the bullet does not drop freely down in the case. Resizing sometimes causes the case to be very small for .356 bullets."

One has to size 9MM cases.

Yes, some thick walled cases will then be tighter than one wants for a bullet, especially a bullet over .355, so we use expanders. The amount of expansion used can vary a bit, as long as it doesn't expand the case so much it won't hold a bullet tight any more.

9MM brass case walls vary in thickness a great deal. We size to make sure there is enough neck tension on even thin walled brass, then we expand enough for easy seating/no bullet damage, but still have adequate neck tension. Or bullet hold as one member likes to say.

 

[Bozrdang]

I got the Mr Bullet expander/funnel for the Dillon powder measure which is like the M expander and it sure made seating bullets straight much easier. Well worth the money. Thanks for the suggestion 9mmepiphany!

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by:billspencer1956
Standard loading practice is to reduce case size not to increase case size with a m-die.

The "M" die is an expander, it is pushed into the case mouth and is incapable of decreasing the size of the case. The expander in the M die is "stepped" so that it expands the case mouth enough to start a bullet, but expands less than most expanders further down in the case, which increases tension and holds the bullet more securely.

If you're trying to say that the M die expands cases less than most other dies, I'll agree with you. But it absolutely does NOT reduce case size. That is accomplished by the sizing die and (to a much lesser extent) the crimping die. I'm not trying to nitpick, but when attempting to explain technical issues, clear wording is essential and sweeping statements are generally unhelpful unless qualified.

Most of the information you've posted has been spot on, but when you include incorrect or unclear information, it tends to devalue the good info that you've provided.

 

[Bozrdang]

I just wanted to follow up on this. I received the Shockbottle 100 round gauge for Christmas and boy is it so much better. I had 200 rounds that wouldn't fully seat in my old gauge and all but 2 dropped in and fell back out of the new gauge. All 200 fit my tightest barrel. So all is good.

I guess the other gauge was just too tight to be practical. Thanks for all your help.

 

[billspencer1956]

Ran a couple hundred 9mm in my lee progressive press over holiday break and only resized just enough to hold the bullet. It was nearly impossible to have any of them equal or exceed maxium. Your concerns have me thinking that over crimping may have another negative effect. Reduction of bullet diameter. This would cause less contact to rifling and reduce accuracy. It would seem Lee dies I have produce undersized 9mm rounds. Thanks for the update.

 

[Dudedog]

Bozrdang,
glad you got it resolved!


Load, shoot, repeat.

 

[Tcruse]

This is so often so very true. If you're loading cast and getting poor results the bullets may not be properly sized for the bore. To remedy that you have to slug the bore and thing is, I've seen .354" - .357" in "quality" guns. A plated or jacketed bullet will likely do well, but cast is a whole different story with .001" over bore diameter being the usual starting diameter. And even then you have to be certain the case doesn't swage down the bullet upon seating. Same for crimping.

A little off the subject, but why do people use the coated lead bullets? From all of the checking I have been able to do, you can buy plated (X-Treme my favorite) or even FMJ for less or the same price. Certainly, it seems that plated do not have many of the issues found in the coated varieties.

 

[Bozrdang]

I can't claim to have checked prices everywhere but where I looked, coated was cheaper. For example, 9mm 115 grain RN:

Xtreme Plated - 3000 = $235.74
Acme Coated - 3000 = $180

Xtreme Plated - 500 = $39.24
Acme Coated - 500 = $35.00

Thats just one example. Plus you can use coupon code enos10 for 10% off any order at Acme and I'm not aware of any long standing code for Xtreme but they do run the daily deals that change all the time.

What issues do coated bullets have? I'm relatively new to reloading but I've used both bullets and the only thing I've really noticed different is the coating is a little easier to scrape off than the plated. But you have to watch your crimp on both. I buy the coated because they are cheaper.

 

[Skinnedknuckles]

A little off the subject, but why do people use the coated lead bullets? From all of the checking I have been able to do, you can buy plated (X-Treme my favorite) or even FMJ for less or the same price. Certainly, it seems that plated do not have many of the issues found in the coated varieties.

Others may have their own reasons, but I first tried them for use at the higher velocities generated in my lever gun when I didn't want to use gas checked bullets (180 gr WFN from MBC). I like them so well, I tried some others. A favorite is the "no lube groove" 230 gr RN for .45 ACP from Acme that I've found to be very accurate. And the looks you get with the "lipstick" bullets are worth a little bit as well

 

[Swampman]

Originally posted by: Tcruse
A little off the subject, but why do people use the coated lead bullets?

I don't know about others, I use them because Harbor Freight red powder paint costs less than five bucks a pound and it'll coat thousands of bullets.

I've pushed 160 grain cast bullets (with no gas checks) at over 2000 fps from an M1A with no leading, decent accuracy and no problems with gas system fouling.

Most of the plated bullets I've seen advertised have maximum recommended velocities that are considerably lower than that.

What are the "issues" you've heard about with coated bullets?

The attached pic is of a couple of 93 grain .314 bullets, one of which has been smashed flat with a hammer. I apologize for the lousy cell phone quality photo, but you should still be able to see that there was no flaking of the paint and coverage stayed pretty good, even with the bullet crushed to almost .6 inch wide.

 

[gamestalker]

I think I'm gonna give coated bullets a try, I've always been intrigued by them.

After all, the only reason I never shot lead was because of the lube, and all the smoke it creates.

GS