Problems with Uberti 1860

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jimeast

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I have had an 1860 for a few months waiting to be tuned up and have a conversion cylinder added. The action was stiff and gritty, so I finally took it apart last night to see what might be the problem. I noticed several things.

1) The edge of the hand that engages with the cylinder ratchet has a large burr on the end, like it is very soft and cycling the trigger (no dry-firing, but 20-30 cycles of the trigger since new) caused the edge of the hand to fold over. Running a file along an edge seems to indicate the hand is not hardened.

2) The hand cannot come up through the channel in the frame without moving around the arbor. It appears that the arbor was not whittled down enough to allow the hand to cycle through it's range of motion freely.

3) The channel for the hand is REALLY rough on both the front where the hand rubs and the back where the spring rubs

4) The cam that manages the action of the bolt is pretty rough, looks cast. Not sure how much that affects the action. It looks difficult to smooth without messing a few up as practice.

Any suggestions would be appreciated. I think I need another hand, hopefully it can be hardened after it's fit. Also, not sure what to use to resolve the issue with the arbor. I can try and work the arbor or the hand.
 
Cooldill, thanks for the mention!!
I've still got yer case with your folder !!! (I'll get it to ya)

Jimeast, there's a whole laundry list of things to do from end to end! Edges everywhere, the hand (as you mentioned), the cam, the trigger, the hammer itself, the bolt (generally gets the most attention), the mainspring tension (which affects the trigger weight as well (be careful here)), the bolt spring tension is almost always waaay too heavy which is why your hammer cams get so chewed up so fast and why the trenches get dug in the cylinder when timing is screwed up (from all the aforementioned self-destructive stuff going on).

You can also run a file on the sides of the frame and the hand chimney (hand passage, slot). Not a lot, you just want to make all the milling marks the same height (reasonably). That will help a lot with smoothness and leaving the milling "grooves" allows much less friction than if it were perfectly smooth.

Then there's the arbor length deal that is the most important fix as far as how the assemblies fit together and will allow the revolver to be the very same each time you re-assemble it.

There are things you can do to make the hand last pretty much a lifetime such as adding an action stop which removes the "wreck" that happens each time you cycle the action. Also, if you're going to play "fast draw" with it, you can remove the spring (after fitting) and harden it (the working end), then re install the spring.

This stuff (except for the "fast draw" step) and some more stuff is what I go through on every revolver I receive. So, there's a lot you can do to make these "thrown together" weapons (= inexpensive !) every bit as good and reliable as any upper end revolver out there!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
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I had a 2015 built Navy that never had the arbor relieved where the hand passes it, must have been built on the same Monday.
But Mike knows how to take care of the other things that will make it a pleasure to shoot,show off, and last for ever.
 
I'd call or e-mail Uberti. You paid for a proper product, and they should provide you with one. I'm not detracting from Goon's services - I believe that if you want a perfected gun then start with a good one. Then send it to Goon if that's your choice. Good luck. THR rocks.
 
I've had several Uberti Colts and still have a pair of 3rd Model Dragoons and all have needed a little work to run the way they should. The burr on the hand needs stoned off but don't change the basic shape or dimensions. Same goes for the slot it rides in...smooth but nothing major.

It's kind of sad in a way, but I've taken to believing that everything I get now a days is an assembled kit and will require some TLC before it's the best it can be. Seeing as most of us aren't willing to pay for the skilled craftsmen to do the 'fluff-n-buff' at the factory I'm happy to save money and DIY. Once all the burrs were off and just a light smoothing of milling marks the Dragoons run very slick and shoot great.

Of course you can send the gun out for work, but if you can DIY (and there's no reason you can't being as they're super simple guns) you save the money and gain the satisfaction of fixing it. I don't believe the hands are hardened and can't imagine them being shot enough to wear out unless you put massive rounds through it, and a replacement part from Dixie isn't all that much so it's not something I personally would worry about.
 
Understand that Uberti and other European makes build low price-point models, to over $1,000 target guns for serious Bullseye competitors. Most of the "regular grade" guns that imported are sold by distributors that are more interested in external cosmetics then internal workmanship.

That's because most buyers seldom or never go out and shoot them. They are attracted by the Wild West association combined with the ability to own them in most places without the usual restrictions that come with current day metallic cartridge firearms.

On the other hand, most of the members that show up on THR's Black Powder sub-forum have much different ideas and standards, and want lockwork and internal fitting that's the same or better then that on the outside. In this context some imports are better then others - and you can see it in advertisements and price differences that are higher.

The bottom line is that if you want excellence in internal work (short of buying one of the big bucks specialized target models) is to either pay for a professional retro-fit and tune job, or do the work yourself. Done right the latter requires knowledge and experience. Done wrong will leave you with a ruined gun, the only question being, how bad?

One such professional is our member, Dragoon 45 - who it seems has no problem getting recommendations from numerous satisfied customers, and is one of a relative few that are willing to work on Colt-style open top revolvers.

So while some may be disappointed in what they first take out of the box, if it doesn't match up to their expectations blame the importer, not the maker. If all replica revolvers came out-of-the-box feeling like a hand tuned product, sales would dive because of a substantial increase in price. :eek:
 
Thanks so much Old Fuff, I appreciate your endorsement and take my hat off to you for that!!

RecoilRob
I know these are "super simple" guns but you'd be surprised at how much work by "gunsmiths" I've had to correct!! I'm sure your job is much more demanding than mine but mine involves much more than what is mentioned above, not to mention knowing how, how much, and how too and above all, why! "Tuning" involves more than "smooth" or a trigger job or how to set up perfect timing. It's putting all that together so that the rest of your revolvers feel a little inadequate. Imagine, a $300-400 revolver that feels more accurate and precise than a $1200 revolver !! I'd say it's worth getting a "run of the mill" revolver "fixed".

You may can fix one to run like a Chevy, I make um run like a Ferrari!! My job is too exceed expectations!!

Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
Good evening,
Definitely looking forward to getting mine back. The Goon understands these revolvers and 'S'atisfaction (capital S) on the part of the owner ensues once they shoot the finished product. My Walker was transformed by his work and I expect the 1860 Army will be as well.
Regards!
 
That's because most buyers seldom or never go out and shoot them. They are attracted by the Wild West association combined with the ability to own them in most places without the usual restrictions that come with current day metallic cartridge firearms.
Click to expand...

I agree 100% with Old Fuff. The vast a majority will shoot them once get tired of the cleaning ritual and put them away. Like my buddy does with his Ruger Old Army, never seen such a fine revolver get treated so bad. I save his Second Generation Colt from a similar fate and bought it off of him.
 
Jimeast, that list of issues sure isn't typical of any Uberti gun I've got or that I've worked on. I sure hope you simply got a solitary lemon. I know it sucks for you but if Uberti is going down the flusher and starts making more and more like that they'll soon cease to be a player in the reproduction market.
 
...if Uberti is going down the flusher and starts making more and more like that they'll soon cease to be a player in the reproduction market.
Click to expand...

Since Beretta bought the company and completely retooled it quality has continually been getting better. However their place as a player in the reproduction market isn't endangered, because as I pointed out the greater majority of buyers don't shoot them, and are more likely concerned with exterior cosmetics.

Serious shooters who want a "serious shooter" will either have to buy the much higher priced competitor models, tune the action themselves (which depending on skill and experience may or may not be a serious mistake) or send the out-of-the-box gun to a professional 'smith for an aftermarket tune up.

Take your choice, but this is the reality of the situation. Sure I wish it wasn't so.
 
Update on 1860 Uberti

I have an auger bit file, that allowed me to file a flat face on the arbor, while sliding the file through the hand channel for alignment. Some of you might find it useful to invest in an auger file if you do not have one already. It has two tapered ends, one cuts on the large faces and one end only cuts on the narrow faces. Perfect for this type of effort

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/files/files-auger-bit-file-?node=4107

I did not get a perfect job on the arbor flat, but the hand can now move in line with the hammer instead of having to curve around the arbor. I'll probably have to work on this area again as I get other issues resolved

Without the hammer spring in, the hand is a little rough moving when first pulling the hammer, but smooths up as it comes up out of the channel. With the gun assembled, the timing seems OK, I used a thin washer to reduce the bolt spring tension a little and it's action is now "all-right." I'm at the point where I'll try and polish things up and set the arbor/barrel fit. The washer to reduce the tension in the bolt spring helped a lot, which seems to indicate where some polishing is needed.

The hand spring seems like it's a little too much still. I'm trying not to give into the urge to put a coil spring and plunger in like Pettifogger suggests, but I might give in.

I have Hoof Hearted preparing a 44 Colt Kirst for me to use. I do not have the heel-base mold or reloading dies yet, so I am not in a hurry, ideally this summer I'll have this all set.

I recently picked up a Ruger New Vaquero and followed a video on polishing up action. It worked out really well, but trying to do the same with the 1860 seems like an order of magnitude more effort. It beats watching TV though.
 
It sometimes seems that Uberti puts the least amount of "serious" into their percussion revolvers.
Quite possibly from the "They won't be actually shooting them much" mindset.

I have an older one from about 15 years back that won't fire CCI caps, with either of two different sets/brands of nipples.
My latest, as Mike has mentioned elsewhere, wore out its hammer cam in 50 cycles.

I would not even try to do any extended shooting on a percussion repro of any brand without having somebody like Mike go through it first.
Denis
 
Gotta second that! My '60 and '61 are not even CLOSE to the same guns I sent to Mike. Had no idea of what a truly well tuned and timed C&B would really feel like. No more mis fires, no jams. They just keep on a shootin. I probably don't have to but I usually wipe the arbor off when I change cylinders each time and I guess I could shoot til I ran out of components without either of them wanting to bind up. I think the most I've fired without wiping was about 40 rounds on the '60 and it gave no signs it was ready to bind up. It shoots every bit as good as my cartridge guns..just as reliable.
 
Well there ya go! I got the best customers in the world!!! (Checks inna mail guys! ;) )

I do enjoy my work though, Like sending a kid to the sand box for punishment!!!


Mike
www.goonsgunworks.com
Follow me on Instagram @ goonsgunworks
 
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