Propellant storage box

[gifbohane]

Read that certain quantities of propellant have to be stored in thick wood bins/boxes/lockers. Not metal cabinets.

Anyone know of a place that sells this type of box for this purpose?

Or a design to make your own?

 

[Akula69]

They can be purchased (at outrageous prices) or you can make your own. The issue is they must have 1" thick walls with a blow out panel for pressure release. The wall design is no problem for most folks, but the blow out panel is. Generally, the blowout panel should face outboard, and be secured with low tension fasteners so as the pressure builds, the fasteners fail. (alternately, the fasteners can be explosive bolts which are triggered with a temperature/pressure sensor, but that would require a certification in explosive training to be legal). A cabinet mounted on the exterior wall could have an exterior mounted panel which would 'blow out' in the case of high pressure, but its weakness also lends itself to being easily pried off and contents removed.

Some folks have used old refrigerators as powder storage units....not sure about the ability to absorb the pressure though...

 

[CoalCrackerAl]

How much is the amount that need a storage locker?

 

[Slamfire]

No one, and I mean no one whom I asked if they subscribe to gun magazines, remembers these recalls, or understood why there was a recall.










all you got to do is read the text, and it is apparent that these lots of gunpowder had deteriorated so rapidly, that someone's house burnt down! When gunpowder deteriorates it heats up, and up, till one tiney tiny spot gets hot enough to autocombust the whole bunch!

I am just amazed the owner of this lot of gunpowder did not have a house fire.




this, the tendency of gunpowder to auto combust with age, is why storage should be in something that pops at low pressures. Stick that stuff in a shell casing, and tighten it down, and your house fire might be a mini of one of these munitions dump explosions

this was in Russia, in 2019. This tells me the Russians are not all that diligent in munitions stockpile surveillance.



2017 Munitions Depot blow in Ukraine




Not sure if this was munitions or something else that caused this blow in China. Big badda boom!



things like this are one reason munitions factories were moved out of highly populated North East towns, into the rural South, after WW1.



I have a lamp made from a shell from the Morgan Explosion.

 

[wcwhitey]

I made this 5/4” Cedar (scrap). I don’t claim it’s up to any design standard but it’s a place to keep powder out of dirt, sparks or anything else that may disturb it without allowing any pressure to build. It holds a few 1 lb containers.

 

[Kevin Rohrer]

I put mine on a shelf in the basement.

 

[Archie]

Look on line for your state's fire code. You might also look for county and city ordinances regarding this. Since all the places I have lived in the U. S. allow the commercial sales of both black and smokeless power without specific legal warnings, that implies the legal right to keep it at home.

SAAMI has some advice on the matter. I build some boxes using 5/8 inch plywood doubled up which makes for over an inch of wall thickness. One is supposed to put no more than XX pounds (can't remember it all off the top of my head, but it amounts to a fair amount) in one box (pile). I don't have 'specs' but I didn't have much problem figuring out how high and wide it had to be to house several pound cans of powder. The bottom and sides are all double layered plywood (as above) and the top is the same with a raised lining to press fit the top in place. Keep the immediate flames out and allow the pressure to vent if it catches fire.

Since I only have smokeless powder, I am more concerned with primers.
Primers can be set off by heat or impact and tend to chain fire. The proper term for this is 'sympathetic explosion'. If one goes off, the one next to it goes off. So fast it looks like one explosion.

Smokeless powders will burn and ignite rather easy - compared to logs, anyway. Probably easier than single sheets of paper. However the burning rate when NOT pressurized (like it is in a cartridge) is a rapid evolution of smoke and stuff, but not an explosion. Probably less scary than gasoline. Still gets one heart rate up and will probably require a 'change of linen'. But it's over in a few seconds.

I found some information a couple years ago on line under 'universal fire code' but the current finding doesn't mention 'gunpowder'. Better to search on your own than to blindly take my word.

 

[gifbohane]

How much is the amount that need a storage locker?

A few large jugs

 

[gifbohane]

Akula-- I googled it and did not find anything. Ideas?

Will check brownells.

 

[Zygodactyl]

They sell a metal commercial powder magazine for about $300.00, wheels extra. I built one out of scrap lumber and plywood. No metal was used in the construction. The sides are a double layer using 3/4 and 3/8 plywood to give it over an inch of thickness. It is sized to hold up to 50 lbs of black powder in Goex bottles in two levels or less using the smokeless bottles. I have it sitting on a mover's dolly to move it out of the shop in case of a fire. The heavy lid is hinged on 3/4 inch dowls and is not locked down so it can blow open to release the pressure. I used box joints to hold it together. A couple of tips for gluing the plywood panels together is to use deep throated clamps or screw them together until the glue dries, than remove the screws and drill the holes out for a 1/4 inch dowel.

 

[Remington1911]

Look on line for your state's fire code. You might also look for county and city ordinances regarding this. Since all the places I have lived in the U. S. allow the commercial sales of both black and smokeless power without specific legal warnings, that implies the legal right to keep it at home.

SAAMI has some advice on the matter. I build some boxes using 5/8 inch plywood doubled up which makes for over an inch of wall thickness. One is supposed to put no more than XX pounds (can't remember it all off the top of my head, but it amounts to a fair amount) in one box (pile). I don't have 'specs' but I didn't have much problem figuring out how high and wide it had to be to house several pound cans of powder. The bottom and sides are all double layered plywood (as above) and the top is the same with a raised lining to press fit the top in place. Keep the immediate flames out and allow the pressure to vent if it catches fire.

Since I only have smokeless powder, I am more concerned with primers.
Primers can be set off by heat or impact and tend to chain fire. The proper term for this is 'sympathetic explosion'. If one goes off, the one next to it goes off. So fast it looks like one explosion.

Smokeless powders will burn and ignite rather easy - compared to logs, anyway. Probably easier than single sheets of paper. However the burning rate when NOT pressurized (like it is in a cartridge) is a rapid evolution of smoke and stuff, but not an explosion. Probably less scary than gasoline. Still gets one heart rate up and will probably require a 'change of linen'. But it's over in a few seconds.

I found some information a couple years ago on line under 'universal fire code' but the current finding doesn't mention 'gunpowder'. Better to search on your own than to blindly take my word.

In talking to the hose draggers around here they are more worried about loaded firearms then anything else. Modern gun powder will just burn, and smokeless will really burn slow next to black powder. Rounds stored will "pop" without a great deal of force. Rounds loaded in guns however when they do cook off no different from pulling the trigger, and this really is a cause for worry to the fire fighters, this bit of info they want to know, be it anything, shotgun, rifle hand gun, whatever. They also want to know if you are into air guns, seems 4000 lbs in a bottle can have a bit of force as well.

I never really understood this steel case with a "blow out" plate. Ahh why. If the plate does blow like it should how is that different from it sitting on a shelf? Answer it really is not short of just holding it in a specific area.

Mine is stored in a large tool box. All metal but it is not air tight. The fire can breathe, but will be held there as long as the metal holds up. No chance of pressure building.

 

[AJC1]

The cheapest and easiest material to use is 1" particle board. I absolutely hate the stuff, but effectively any fastener you put in the stuff is a low pressure release. They meet the requirements but will not hold up to any abuse or wet conditions, like a damp basement.

 

[Akula69]

I am not affiliated in any way to any of these companies... jut wanted to provide context.

Custom made container with blowout vent. This design could probably be easily made by some folks in here.
https://www.architecturalarmour.com/security-products/bullet-boards/blow-out-panels

Blow out panel testing
https://pmtnuclear.com/purpose-built/blow-out-panels/

Industrial blowout design. Address the implosion danger in some commercial settings (see animation at bottom of page).
https://www.c-sgroup.com/specialty-venting/explovent-explosion-and-pressure-relief-vents

Generally, all of them refer to NFPA68, the "gold standard" in regulation.

And, as stated before...these companies will gladly take ALL of your money to provide a solution!
With a bit of ingenuity you can design your own solution:
For the tinkering sort - I would start using a barometric switch that operates a panel when the pressure gets too high...opening a panel.
For the "I want a solution now" sort - a thick walled box will do.

 

[lightman]

I just store mine on shelves in the closet thats part of my loading room. Its a constant temp and is out of the direct sunlight. The Firemen that I know are worried more about things like propane tanks and aerosol cans than powder. And loaded firearms of course!

 

[jmorris]

I use shelves for storage. I guess a wood box would be better than inside a pipe…

 

[Charlie98]

I never really understood this steel case with a "blow out" plate. Ahh why. If the plate does blow like it should how is that different from it sitting on a shelf? Answer it really is not short of just holding it in a specific area.

I must admit... I've scratched my head over the whole 'powder magazine' thing... a storage box that falls apart. I understand the concept of why the box needs to relieve pressure, but I question the need for a box at all. If a reloading room is engulfed in fire, having the powder in a box that will come apart seems senseless to me. Certainly I'm missing something...

 

[Jim Watson]

The WOODEN box is supposed to provide a fair amount of insulation and consumes energy by charring. So if the fire is not too long lasting, you might not find out about the blowout panel or loose lid.

The whiskey bottle and powder can were in a kitchen cabinet opposite where the fire started. Labels are scorched, contents were fine.

 

[AJC1]

I must admit... I've scratched my head over the whole 'powder magazine' thing... a storage box that falls apart. I understand the concept of why the box needs to relieve pressure, but I question the need for a box at all. If a reloading room is engulfed in fire, having the powder in a box that will come apart seems senseless to me. Certainly I'm missing something...

It's a measure to protect fire fighters. If you have 64 pounds of powder locked in a safe that's no gooder.

 

[Jim Watson]

Said firefighters threw powder cans out the window when they entered my pantry. Friends picked them up.

 

[Archie]

The WOODEN box is supposed to provide a fair amount of insulation and consumes energy by charring. So if the fire is not too long lasting, you might not find out about the blowout panel or loose lid.

Probably the single best concept explanation I've seen. The wood box is to separate the contents from flame. The thickness is to insulate the contents from heat. The 'blowout' panel or 'flimsy' construction is to prevent the box from becoming a bomb in the worst possible eventuality.

To be open, I have a suspicion that storing the powder in a small room is probably not too dangerous. And frankly, smokeless powder is less of a hazard than some cleaning solutions. A gasoline lawnmower with the fuel tank half full has far more explosive power than an eight pound keg of smokeless powder.

 

[gifbohane]

Great Stuff-- Thank You all.....

 

[Remington1911]

Probably the single best concept explanation I've seen. The wood box is to separate the contents from flame. The thickness is to insulate the contents from heat. The 'blowout' panel or 'flimsy' construction is to prevent the box from becoming a bomb in the worst possible eventuality.

To be open, I have a suspicion that storing the powder in a small room is probably not too dangerous. And frankly, smokeless powder is less of a hazard than some cleaning solutions. A gasoline lawnmower with the fuel tank half full has far more explosive power than an eight pound keg of smokeless powder.

I can understand that argument, he brought up, and I guess unless your wood box actually catches fire it would work like in his pictures. Wonder what the diff would be between a wood box and a metal box with some kind of insulation inside? I would think metal would be better as wood does burn.

Don't know, but really not too worried about it.....but I have learned something.

 

[Jim Watson]

I googled and found pictures of commercial "magazines" that were metal lined with wood. They must figure it has some advantage over insulation.

 

[GeoDudeFlorida]

I use cardboard boxes to separate the pounders and keep it all on steel wire shelves in a closet with a ventilated door. The closet is drywall and concrete and has a heat-triggered water extinguisher in the ceiling. Local FD says that’s fine. Same caution as everyone else about keeping guns loaded. Loaded ammo is in a Steelcase locking cabinet in plastic keepers and retail-style boxes. The Chief didn’t bat an eye at any of the loaded ammo. He did tell me last time he was out about a car fire following an accident where there were a bunch of loaded rifles that cooked off. Nobody was hurt by gunfire but a Deputy Sheriff at the scene did catch some gun parts when one of them came apart. Chief said it was probably a loaded magazine.

Two counties East of me the FD’s policy is to let a house burn and just contain the fire if its known to have reloading components and ammunition inside. They consider it too risky to try and put out the fire.

 

[mdi]

IF I were to get a dedicated "powder locker" I would get something like this; https://www.amazon.com/Eagle-Reinforced-Flammable-Gasoline-1925X/dp/B084YM6FGD/ref=sr_1_28?keywords=Paint+Storage+Cabinets&qid=1666631135&qu=eyJxc2MiOiI0LjMzIiwicXNhIjoiMi4zMiIsInFzcCI6IjAuMDAifQ==&sr=8-28&ufe=app_do:amzn1.fos.2b70bf2b-6730-4ccf-ab97-eb60747b8daf. But In 40+ years of reloading I have never had a shop fire, using my precautions, and in 75 years of living, no Fire Marshal has ever visited my home/shop...