Proper CCW behavior with / aid to LEO

[CapnMac]

DETAINED!
A citizen steps into a dangerous situation to aid a leo and he gets thanked by being detained! What the hell is wrong with you guys? Is everyone a criminal in y'alls eyes?

Depends upon the laws of the State this occurs within. Every one of Texas' gun/weapon laws,
including the CHL are defenses to prosecution (emphasis added).
Not a defense against Arrest or Detainment or Restraint.

It is down to the county prosecutor in each of the 254 counties in Texas to decide if you committed an offense or not. Which will not prevent you from spending the night in the county inn. Even when you are 'right.' Hoovers, but until that is found to be wrong, it is the law.

 

[Six]

Help a LEO arrest someone: Hell no.

Help a LEO who's about to get killed: No different from helping a civilian about to get killed.

 

[DeathByCactus]

Watched an officer on cops fight with a man in the street for about 5 minutes... Officer was not fairing so well... Everyone kept walking on by. Finally a few people came and jumped on the attacker, the officer basically understood that the bystanders was helping him and proceeded to arrest the attacker.

This sort of thing depends on the situation. Best thing you can do, stay a distance away to not intimidate the officer who is already under pressure, call 911. The bad guy will see/hear this and it will reassure the officer that help is on the way. (At least, I would think). Plus police will respond real quick to officer's in need.

If the officer is clearly going to die, or starts screaming for his life... you help, at least I would help. He already knows who was beating his ass for the past few minutes. But, it's situational, the second he gets a grip on his gun at that point he will probably use it. So, lol.

It's all bad news bears. 911 is your friend.

 

[chaplain tom]

We can all come up with "book ends" to this scenario. There are extremes on both ends of this discussion. Just the same though, there are going to be obvious situations where you KNOW what's happening and you can decide what to do because you know the facts. In a situation where you happen upon something, you have to trust your own instincts and act accordingly. I have a sense of right and wrong that would force me to act if I could make a difference. I personally would rather lose everything and spend the rest of my life in jail knowing that I had done what was right, than spend the rest of my life looking at the coward in the mirror every morning who stood by and did nothing because he was afraid of being sued. That's just the way I feel about this and I wouldn't have anything bad to say about someone who acted differently than I would have. I'm not calling anyone a coward because he would have acted differently than I would have. This is a very personal judgment call and I cannot judge how anyone else would react in a given situation. Our society has become litigation happy and good people with only good intentions are being nailed everyday for lending a "helping" hand. You gotta make your own call and live with the decision, no one can do it for you.

 

[content]

Hello friends and neighbors // Not having a clue what was happening I'd be moving away as soon as shots were fired.

If in the process I saw what appeared to be an officer about to be shot in the back or from a window who is to say it is not another citizen "helping" cover the officer in their own manner.
Surely a judgement call depending on the incident.
If I saw the same officer underfire from behind or from a window I'd have to help, even though other citizens might mistake me for the assaliant.


Discharging a firearm in this manner I would expect to need a lawyer and to have my firearm examined for a bit.
Praying no flyers/ricochets hit innocents would be high on my list.
I hope none of us has to find out.

I have two retired LEO family members. I'll ask if they have ever been in this situation.

 

[lawson4]

How are you going to let me know that you are a good guy, in the heat of battle? I would appreciate the help, but you would distract me from the task at hand while I try to figure out if you are on my side or the other's. I will have enough on my mind that the distraction might take more than a few seconds. If indeed I am about to get finished off, then I wouldn't care if you were wearing a skinhead t-shirt and a red rubber nose. No introductions would be necessary.

Rick

 

[alohachris]

Help a LEO arrest someone: Hell no.

Help a LEO who's about to get killed: No different from helping a civilian about to get killed.

This.

It would have to be obvious beyond any doubt, like a lone officer wrestling someone for his gun & not faring well. Even then, a solid tackle & choke hold is probably a better response than drawing.

 

[05FLHT]

To me it is a situation of both morals and ethics. While utmost caution and restraint should be exercised before intervening there are some cases where common decency and humanity dictate action-immunity or not.

You may want to think about all of the consequences you might face. I don't know what kind of decent person would not want to help if they could, but at what cost to yourself. Is this being selfish, or is this ensuring self preservation?

I personally would rather lose everything and spend the rest of my life in jail knowing that I had done what was right, than spend the rest of my life looking at the coward in the mirror every morning who stood by and did nothing because he was afraid of being sued. That's just the way I feel about this and I wouldn't have anything bad to say about someone who acted differently than I would have. I'm not calling anyone a coward because he would have acted differently than I would have. This is a very personal judgment call and I cannot judge how anyone else would react in a given situation. Our society has become litigation happy and good people with only good intentions are being nailed everyday for lending a "helping" hand. You gotta make your own call and live with the decision, no one can do it for you.

I quoted the majority of the response as to not take it out of context. The part that I feel requires more thought is in bold. For me to step into a situation that I am not involved in and employ actions which may cost everything I hold dear is simply not worth it. It may be morally right or ethically responsible to do so, but would you really risk everything for a situation that you have no intimate knowledge of?

Becoming involved and making the wrong decision, even if it is just an innocent mistake could cost you everything; your job, home, family (and their financial future) and not to mention your freedom. Am I saying I would never help in any situation, no. Am I saying it is probably the smart thing to not get involved in the first place, yes. You could take the action and know that you stepped up, "did what was right" and saved the day...or, spend the rest of a miserable life regretting not walking away.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Help a LEO arrest someone: Hell no.

Help a LEO who's about to get killed: No different from helping a civilian about to get killed.

Sums up my view. If I could provide help and the person was in immediate and clear danger (death), I would help if I could and if my intervention would even do any good. There are too many what-if scenarios, but if one came up where I could help keep a fellow human from losing his life, I would.

A citizen steps into a dangerous situation to aid a leo and he gets thanked by being detained! What the hell is wrong with you guys? Is everyone a criminal in y'alls eyes?

Detained by fellow officers. Once other officers get there, it would be a chaotic scene. If it's bad enough a civilian stepped in, there's a good chance the original officer is down. The arriving officers would have no clue what happened if the 1st officer were incapacitated and not giving a "play by play" over his radio. The officers would have no choice but to detain everyone and find out what happens, good guys are readily identifiable. I would be understanding in such a situation.

Its no different than a street brawl. If someone walked up and assaulted me, then an officer walked up in the middle of the scuffle....he would have no choice but to detain us both and sort out the details.

 

[chaplain tom]

You may want to think about all of the consequences you might face. I don't know what kind of decent person would not want to help if they could, but at what cost to yourself. Is this being selfish, or is this ensuring self preservation?

You should have included this part of my response. I think you and I are closer than you might think in our views on this subject. Read the following excerpts from my post.

We can all come up with "book ends" to this scenario. There are extremes on both ends of this discussion. Just the same though, there are going to be obvious situations where you KNOW what's happening and you can decide what to do because you know the facts.

This states fairly clearly that there are times when YOU WOULD KNOW what the situation really is and therefore you could act accordingly, either to get involved or to stay out.

In a situation where you happen upon something, you have to trust your own instincts and act accordingly.

This part of my repsonse also states clearly that IF YOU HAPPEN UPON A SITUATION not necessarily knowing what is happening, then you would have to weigh the pros and cons of getting involved and THEN... AND ONLY THEN, act accordingly. And that might mean staying out of it altogether.

I also said;

I have a sense of right and wrong that would force me to act if I could make a difference.

There would be no sense in getting involved if your actions wouldn't change the outcome.

 

[TIMC]

This subject is one I have never really thought about. I guess I think this is probably a waste of time and enrgy to dwell on. The odds of an LEO requiring or even wanting your help are less than likely. Your time would be better spent contemplating the winning lotto numbers since the odds are better of you winning than an LEO needing your help. I rarely see situations where cops are not under control of situations and ususally if they feel even a slight chance of something going wrong they have plenty of backup around.

 

[heeler]

Really TIMC??
I have had several police officers working a security detail for me over the years at my place of work and have heard some pretty good stories from them about one on one with people they were trying to arrest.
And add to the mix that at least here they patrol alone and also add to the mix the diversity factor of hiring officers that are light in weight,over weight,physically weaker than most men females,etc. and it is not at all so far fetched.

 

[TexasBill]

As far as liability goes, most states have "Good Samaritan" laws which protect persons rendering aid in an emergency. Most states also have laws allowing a law enforcement officer to require/request aid from a civilian if the situation warrants.

While I would definitely offer assistance, I would also definitely not approach with a drawn weapon. Hands empty and visible is a real good way to go. I would ask the officer if I could help and let him know I am armed. The officer has to be in charge of the situation. If the officer says the best thing you can do is get the hell out of there - get. The only exception is if they are incapable (injured, for example) in which case your best option is simply to defend the officer, perform first aid if you know how, and not attempt to effect an arrest or even take aggressive action against the bad guys. When other officers show up, no matter what, lose the gun and raise your hands. It's a lot easier to explain your actions if you're not dead. You may be detained, so what? There is going to be an investigation and you were part of the action and, therefore, at least a witness. If you did render aid to an officer, chances are real good you'll be quickly released with thanks.

It's most likely you will never be asked to use your firearm; there are too many problems with liability and sorting out who fired what shots. Your best weapon, even in the case of a wounded officer, is probably your cell phone to alert the agency that an officer is down and give the exact location. Believe me, when an officer is down, fellow officers will blow engines responding. The more information they have coming on scene, the better it is for everyone.

An interesting link on the topic...

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-issues/articles/2143085-Would-be-warriors-in-waiting-Getting-help-when-you-need-it/

 

[Werewolf]

If the officer is clearly going to die, or starts screaming for his life... you help, at least I would help. He already knows who was beating his ass for the past few minutes.

Ya know what? As I am sure everyone here knows the cops are under no obligation to aid citizens in peril and there have been many cases where they didn't. That's how the Supreme Court got to decide the cops aren't under any obligation to help us when we're in peril.

Why should we help them? They're so damned concerned with officer safety that the 4th amendment has essentially been gutted to assure it. They aren't under any obligation to protect us or intervene if we're in peril so again I ask...

Why the hell should we intervene if they're in peril?

 

[nalioth]

While I would definitely offer assistance, I would also definitely not approach with a drawn weapon. Hands empty and visible is a real good way to go. I would ask the officer if I could help and let him know I am armed. The officer has to be in charge of the situation. If the officer says the best thing you can do is get the hell out of there - get.

Again, imho, if the officer is capable of holding a conversation, they're not in need of any assistance.



I love edited posts.

 

[TexasBill]

Nalioth: The word I wanted was "effect" and the word I used was "effect" as in making an arrest. The intent being that you shouldn't try to become a substitute cop.

If the officer is in control of the situation, I would steer clear; that's just common sense. I was trying to differentiate between an officer under duress, but still capable of defending themselves, and an officer down. It may be the officer's portable radio isn't functioning (this does happen) and he/she is isolated from the patrol car.

We all know this is an unlikely situation. However, if needed, I would do my best to render the appropriate aid, whether I was armed or not.

Werewolf: The desire to assist doesn't come from the officer being a cop; it comes from the normal, Christian urge to help someone in need. If at all possible, I want that cop to go home at the end of the shift. If that escapes you, I am very sorry for you.

 

[ForumSurfer]

Why the hell should we intervene if they're in peril?

This is strictly my opinion, and I do not think badly nor criticize anyone who would choose a different course of action. It's a free country, do what you feel you must so long as it doesn't interfere with my rights...another one of the great things about our country. I for one would help another person if is within my power to do so effectivly and if my intervention will change the outcome. If we treat others with the same disrespect they show us, the country just gets worse. Sooner or later we have to live by the golden rule when we can. I know it's corny and wishful thinking, but the more people do it...the more decently more people are treated. Then maybe the blatant disrespectful ones will become the minority as opposed to the norm.

Not every cop on the street is more concerned for his safety than mine. Not every cop treats everyone he comes into contact with as a potential perp. There are many on the street who work simply to serve the public to the best of their ability. Many that would gladly put their lives on the line for us in a heartbeat without expecting anything in return. Granted, the bad apples leave a rotten taste in the collective public's mind.

 

[coloradokevin]

Most LEOs never experience a real life shoot/no-shoot scenario in their lifetime. Half of them are undertrained in this area as well. Faced with that situation, with adrenaline pumping, it seems like you'd be asking to get shot if you produced your handgun unless you can also produce a badge.

That might depend more on the department that you are dealing with than anything else. The training for these situations is pretty good in my department, and working on the streets has placed many of us in a number of critical incidents in our careers. In some areas officers are more accustomed to seeing armed citizens, and in other areas a citizen with a gun might be viewed as a threat (Chicago, etc).

I'll say this much: I'd generally recommend that a citizen stay on the sidelines unless it is clear that I'm in need of immediate assistance. Sometimes it is hard to tell who is a friend and who is an enemy, especially in a densely populated area like the one where I work. I'd hate to end up accidentally shooting a CCW'er who came up behind me during a gang fight, simply because I thought that they were trying to ambush me. Sometimes it is easy to tell the difference between a friend and foe, while other times it is much more difficult.

Honestly, our undercover officers are equally cautious when approaching these situations, for fear of misidentification. But, they have the advantage of wearing a badge, and being able to announce that they are police officers!

Still, if I was ever getting my butt handed to me on the streets, I'd gladly accept any help I could get! I just recommend a cautious approach into these situations, as they can be dangerous for anyone involved. If you do decide to get into a fight to help an officer, you simply might consider announcing your intentions as you approach: "Officer, what can I do to help?", or "I've got your back officer", or "Officer, I'm coming up beside you and I'm armed... tell me where I can help".

In these situations just be prepared to follow directions. If the officer asks you to step back, step back. If the officer asks you to help, try to help.


I once had a retired police officer (who wasn't carrying a badge) help me as I took custody of a couple of robbery suspects. I didn't know this officer, and he didn't immediately tell me that he was a retired cop. But, he announced what he was doing, and that he was armed, and provided cover for me until my cover showed up. He then backed out of the situation and waited to provide a witness statement.

 

[TIMC]

Really TIMC??

Really!

 

[ArmedBear]

In most situations, a trained police officer will not want your "help", and it would likely endanger his/her life even more.

In many situations, you won't really know what the hell is going on, and you should get away before you find out firsthand what kind of bullets are flying.

In a few situations, you might be in a position to save a life. In those few situations, it will be so obvious that you won't be wondering about it. If you're wondering, then you should not "help".

 

[valorius]

If helping an LEO in a non life threatening situation (or as the cop above put it, if i was "wondering") i would say:

"OFFICER DO YOU NEED HELP?" at a very high volume level. Maybe even tack on something like "I'm an ex soldier" at the end, so he knows i could actually be some help. Just simply offering would more likely than not calm the situation, as the perp would now realize the cop had some immediate backup. If the cop says no, you go about your business.

If helping an LEO in a life threatening situation......go with your gut- no two situations will ever be the same. Sometimes it might be most unwise to say anything as it would negate your tactical surprise advantage. In other cases, simply saying something might cause the perp to flee. Other times "ON YOUR KNEES SCUMBAG!" while pistol whipping them across the back of the head might be appropriate.

Go with your gut.

In any case if you see this from any kind of distance, try to make your approach from the criminals rear quadrant to maximize your safety and effectiveness.

These are all just my opinions.

PS: I come from an area at least as bad as the one where deanimator was born, i definitely know what he means... but i'm also from a family of cops. I would hope i'd just do what was right according to what my eyes and ears and nose were telling me.

 

[chaplain tom]

Werewolf: The desire to assist doesn't come from the officer being a cop; it comes from the normal, Christian urge to help someone in need. If at all possible, I want that cop to go home at the end of the shift. If that escapes you, I am very sorry for you.

I guess that's what I've been trying to say all along. Amen Tex

 

[Gouranga]

I am sorry, maybe it is because I come from a family with LEOs, but I see someone putting the beat down on a cop, I am putting an end to it. What tools I would use would depend on the situation, Anything from tackling a suspect off the top of an officer, to OC spray, to lethal force depending on the circumstances and the danger to the officer.

I have no doubt, I will never see this unfold before me, however should beat the odds and be there, I will act.

As for how to deal with the officer, I would say follow the main guideline given in each and ever post on interaction with LEOs, if given instructions, follow them to the letter.

 

[MedWheeler]

From one of the many similar threads in the past, part of my response: >>>Having been behind the badge myself, I have considered scenarios involving LEOs in distress. My plan is to provide assistance to the extent of necessity and of my ability. I would, depending on situation, announce myself and my intent to assist to the officer, and tell him to deputize me if he or she is able to do so. In Florida, a LEO can do so merely by requesting assistance.<<<

 

[coloradokevin]

I would, depending on situation, announce myself and my intent to assist to the officer, and tell him to deputize me if he or she is able to do so.

Not to take this off-topic for a moment, but I wish I had the authority to deputize people in Colorado... simply because it sounds so darn cool!

(we don't get to do that here, but I'd certainly make it clear to a citizen that I'd appreciate their help if I was getting my butt handed to me)