Proper CCW behavior with / aid to LEO

[MinnMooney]

from Zundfolge (post 3) :

The only reason I'd consider clearing leather to help a LEO is if its clear that the criminal(s) has the upper hand and the officer is about to be seriously injured or killed.

Ditto. I would have to absorb the situation thoroughly before taking serious action if a LEO was already on the scene.

 

[kayak-man]

If the LEO needs my help, he's going to get it. Is that the safest and smartest play? No, probably not. I've seen other threads on this forum where a similar question is asked, and a few well meaning folks point out that the cop could be bent, not a cop, an issue of police brutality, etc...

Yes it could be that, but I'm willing to play those odd, especially around here.

Now, I'm not saying that everyone should feel the same way. Those folks that say its not their place to get involved, its dangerous, theres the chance they are helping the wrong guy and for all they know the dude isn't a cop, just some guy pretending to be a cop, well, I'm not going to hold that against you. I think this is kind of a personal decision. Think about it. We are talking about intervening in a violent conflict, and making a decision, a decision that could very well end in you having to use lethal force to defend someone you've never met, and you're mainly basing that decision on the clothes that that person is wearing. I think if you wanted to walk away from that situation, it would be really hard to blame you.

Sorry if I come off as preachy, condescending or all high and mighty. Tone doesn't translate as well over the Internet as it does face to face.

 

[gym]

Tough call, you would have to be there to decide.

 

[joe_security]

In some states, on duty LEOs can comandeer both people and vehicles. It depends on the emergency. Of course it varies from one state to another.

 

[gun guy]

a wrist band, or some way to identify yourself as a legal ccw holder has been discussed. i have even spoken with many aspects of the LEO community. a gunfight, police involved, your armed wearing jeans and a peace now t-shirt. could get complicated. most LEO think some form of visible ID (something you could clip on, or a bracelet as you draw your weapon is a good idea. any input is welcome. ending up a victim, when you're trying to help isn't what you signed up for. any ideas? there are quite a few smart, experienced folks here, i'm sure we can come up with something.

 

[MisterMike]

I think the important thing to remember is that, if a situation has gotten to the point where you're contemplating helping out an LEO, it's a a high-stress situation for the cop who's involved and his decision-making skills--including his ability to discern between friend or foe--may be compromised.

Absolutely the first thing you should do is call 9-1-1. Tell them what's going on and, if you're going to attempt to intervene, let them know that, giving a description of yourself. Keep the line open and then ask the cop on the scene if he needs any assistance. Odds are that he'll want you to keep out of it, unless things are going south in a serious way.

As far as employing your concealed weapon, I'd say that the only time--absolutely the ONLY time--to pull it out and use it is if you feel the good guy(s) are in imminent danger of serious harm or death. Doing it at any other time complicates the cop's life and places you in danger. It may also compromise the officer's safety, as his attention may then be split.

I was an LEO for a few years and I can't think of any situation in which I wish an outsider would have gotten involved in a physical confrontation or apprehension. On the other hand, there were times when I would have been more comfortable with backup, but the situation was evolving quickly enough that getting on the radio at the moment was not practical. If you see a cop in trouble, your first reaction should be to call 9-1-1.

There are a lot of threads that are started here that seem to be based on the unspoken premise that anyone who carries legally is a Junior Deputy. Not so much. Unless an LEO specifically requests your help, you have no special legal status and the legal and practical constraints that apply in any other situation still govern.

 

[Gouranga]

MisterMike, I think the key in this question here is the HUGE array of possibilities. A running gunfight (as post #55 lays out), I ain't getting involved. In that scenario the police are engaged with criminals, they do not know you inserting yourself into that situation, is asking for trouble. There is no way they know who you are.

Should I be driving down the interstate and see some guy just beating the crud out of a cop, I am stopping and not dialing 911, in that case, IMO, the officer needs help NOW not 20 seconds later after you dial 911 and give them the details.

If I come on the scene and there is 1 cop, wrestling with a suspect on the ground, 2 or 3 "friends" of the suspect threatening the officer, I would call 911 to report the situation, then approach, asking the officer if he required assistance and following whatever directions he gave (if he said "NO!! Back off!!", then back way off to not pose a distraction and wait for his backup to arrive to answer and questions, provide a witness account and be there in case he changes his mind).

A good point that I do not think can be stressed too much, having a firearm does not make you a cop, It makes you an armed citizen. Nothing more.

 

[Officers'Wife]

Considering the conversations I've overheard from LEO's in various cities, I believe I would find a place out of the line of fire and wait until the shooting stopped. In that kind of circumstance the LEO in question is more likely to assume that shots from an unexpected area are another hostile rather than a citizen come to the rescue.

 

[doc2rn]

Been "detained" a couple of times for helping LEOs, usually some big burly guy beatin on a female officer after bein pulled over for speeding. I love the flying tackle with clothes line approach. No second guessing who's side I am on.

 

[Pow]

Regarding Sam1911´s observation in another thread, I too believe that CCW interaction with LEOs is a very important topic for discussion.

Like it or not, CCWs are not viewed favorably by a large portion of the public and may or may not be seen with prejudice by LEOs. Maybe we can get some responses here that will bring out the best ways to interact with law enforcement, and when and how it is appropriate to try to help LEOs should that terrible circumstance arise.

Hopefully THR´s active and retired LEOs will lend insight.

Well, I don't have any personal experience with LEOs and my brand-new-shiny gun and permit...but I spent a lot of time before I ever got the permit thinking about what I intended to do in the event that I encounter a police officer with my gun on my person (or in my car). I finally decided that if/when it becomes relevant, I intend to simply hand over my permit with my driver's license and proof of insurance (if car-related), and let the paperwork do the talking. Perhaps it's a naive assumption (and as shiny as my gun and permit), but I _DID_ pass a criminal background check, and my fingerprints are on file--I know that because it took me two days to get the last of the ink off my fingers!

Frankly, I'm not sure what I'd do if I was encountering law enforcement after having actually used the thing. Probably insist on lawyering up before I made a statement of any kind, including even something as innocuous as "Yeah, that's my gun." It's my opinion that immediately following the discharge of a firearm (self-defense or not, civilian or not), NOBODY is your friend, including all LEOs responding to the scene. Therefore, from my perspective, it's probably smartest to say nothing at all except to simply ensure that the police officer's instructions are obeyed immediately and without argument. I came to this conclusion after I saw a police officer Taser someone once, and I really don't like even thinking about the idea of me wetting myself in public and twitching helplessly on the ground. Acquiring bullet holes of my own are even less acceptable, and even seasoned police officers get really twitchy when they're responding to a call about shots fired.

My opinions are quite possibly hopelessly out-of-touch (see 'naive' again), but I'm also a young woman, and not exactly physically imposing, so it's a survival tactic for me to make nice and be unobtrusive as long as possible. I think it was Teddy Roosevelt who said something about "walk softly but carry a big stick." I rather like that notion.

 

[Roswell_Kid]

I think Pow's line of thinking was more what I was originally asking about. Probably should not have included the "how it is appropriate to help LEOs" portion at all. Seems logical that, given the stress of a situation so uncontrolled that a citizen should contemplate jumping in, 999 times out of 1000 the best thing to do would be to call 911 and stay the hell out of the way.

I am more concerned with proper protocol during a traffic stop, encountering a couple of officers at a metal detector, etc. Common sense dictates to be perfectly clear but discreet in notifying officers that you are legally carrying and take it from there. Just looking for some more experienced CCWs input on do's and don'ts. Many helpful responses above - thanks!

 

[JohnBiltz]

I like to think I would get involved if someone, anyone was about to be killed in front of me. But...You better be sure of who and what is happening and when the squad cars roll in I sure would not be holding a fire arm. You are not needed anymore and they may well shoot you.

 

[Pow]

I think the important thing to remember is that, if a situation has gotten to the point where you're contemplating helping out an LEO, it's a a high-stress situation for the cop who's involved and his decision-making skills--including his ability to discern between friend or foe--may be compromised.

Absolutely the first thing you should do is call 9-1-1. Tell them what's going on and, if you're going to attempt to intervene, let them know that, giving a description of yourself. Keep the line open and then ask the cop on the scene if he needs any assistance. Odds are that he'll want you to keep out of it, unless things are going south in a serious way.

As far as employing your concealed weapon, I'd say that the only time--absolutely the ONLY time--to pull it out and use it is if you feel the good guy(s) are in imminent danger of serious harm or death. Doing it at any other time complicates the cop's life and places you in danger. It may also compromise the officer's safety, as his attention may then be split.

I was an LEO for a few years and I can't think of any situation in which I wish an outsider would have gotten involved in a physical confrontation or apprehension. On the other hand, there were times when I would have been more comfortable with backup, but the situation was evolving quickly enough that getting on the radio at the moment was not practical. If you see a cop in trouble, your first reaction should be to call 9-1-1.

There are a lot of threads that are started here that seem to be based on the unspoken premise that anyone who carries legally is a Junior Deputy. Not so much. Unless an LEO specifically requests your help, you have no special legal status and the legal and practical constraints that apply in any other situation still govern.

*high-five for MisterMike's post* I've known how to handle a firearm since I was ten years old and my dad took me into the backyard to show me how to shoot the .22 rifle we used for chasing off coyotes. I respect firearms, and I respect the authority one lends to a person. I'm not in any way afraid of guns, but I AM afraid of people who think that because they're legally carrying that they get to strap on their egos with their guns and that they are essentially "Junior Deputies," to borrow MisterMike's phrase. There is no way I would even consider keeping my gun out once the police arrived. They have guns AND badges. I just have a gun.

 

[Pow]

a wrist band, or some way to identify yourself as a legal ccw holder has been discussed. i have even spoken with many aspects of the LEO community. a gunfight, police involved, your armed wearing jeans and a peace now t-shirt. could get complicated. most LEO think some form of visible ID (something you could clip on, or a bracelet as you draw your weapon is a good idea. any input is welcome. ending up a victim, when you're trying to help isn't what you signed up for. any ideas? there are quite a few smart, experienced folks here, i'm sure we can come up with something.

Might or might not be a good idea. Depends on the situation. It's not like wearing a medical alert bracelet for someone with diabetes or a heart condition. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't the whole point of having a concealed carry permit so nobody knows it's on you until it actually becomes relevant to the situation?

There are a number of states where it's illegal to conceal a weapon in public without a permit, but where it's perfectly legal to carry one openly. Why not do that instead? Although, speaking as a jewelry designer, I could probably make a small fortune by starting a line of understated, elegant copper or brushed nickel and/or steel bracelets that would satisfy any need to identify oneself as legal to carry concealed. An engraved watch, anyone? Anybody interested in pre-ordering? (I'm kidding. Mostly.)