Proper Cleaning for Corrosive Rifle?

[Slamfire]

Another issue I found on my Russian Mosins is that the milsurp copper washed mild steel jackets on the bullets produces massive amounts of copper fouling in only a few rounds fired. I spent hours when the guns were near new to me cleaning and de-coppering the bores. One session with milsurp ammo shooting three paper packs of ammo and the copper fouling was back with the same amount and time needed to clean as before.

Just dip the bullets in grease. This will eliminate jacket fouling 100%. Early jacketed bullets were greased for a number of Nations. I have found, from a 1908 reference, that the early Carcano ammunition had greased bullets, the Austrian service rifle, early Russian Nagant ammunition was issued with greased bullets.

And of course, the Swiss issued service rifle ammunition up to the 1980's with a grease ring.



While most other nations abandoned greased bullets once they got rid of cupronickel jackets or plain steel jackets, because greased bullets are messy, I know the Australians were greasing their 303 bullets in the 1930’s, however the Swiss kept using greased bullets because it improved accuracy.

I have dipped bullets in lubriplate 130, GI rifle grease, vaseline, axle grease, etc. No fouling what so ever, and shoots good.

 

[briansmithwins]

You mean corrosive ammo that wasn't properly cleaned as described above after shooting, correct? I would imagine when you're trying to stay alive cleaning a government rifle isn't at the top of your priority list, especially if not a gun guy to begin with.

Yep, trying to keep a bore shiny while fighting in the Pacific theater was probably a losing preposition from the get go.

BSW

 

[Paul7]

Yep, trying to keep a bore shiny while fighting in the Pacific theater was probably a losing preposition from the get go.

BSW

The humidity had to be something.

 

[50 Shooter]

The weather wasn't any better on the eastern front.

 

[Caliper_Mi]

What kind of accuracy improvement do you see with PPU over Russian?

Actually, I'm not sure I've fired both in the same rifle... The one M39 is a late date rifle with a like new bore, never have put bimetal jacketed bullets through it. I have used it to shoot a few 2moa groups at 200yd from prone with PPU however. Surplus tends to group wider than that, but I'm also shooting it out of rifles with more worn barrels.

 

[Slamfire]

Yep, trying to keep a bore shiny while fighting in the Pacific theater was probably a losing preposition from the get go.

BSW

The humidity had to be something.

I have been to the Marshall Islands, the humidity at night is as thick as pea soup, and the daylight sunlight intensity is beyond anything CONUS. The skin on white angelo saxon types will blister after an afternoon's exposure. Steel rusts incredibly fast. A bicycle will be rusted to uselessness after a weeks exposure. These little islands were totally flattened by Naval and air bombardment, so not many places to stand up without being in a line of fire. The water table is just below the surface, even the Japanese built their pill boxes above ground. I really doubt anyone was boiling water to clean their rifle barrel, then standing up and pumping it up and down to remove corrosive fouling.

 

[BCRider]

Me- ".... copper fouling"

Paul7- "Anyone heard of this for cleaning copper fouling? Seems pretty easy to use.

http://www.sharpshootr.com/wipe-out/ "

Paul, Wipeout is what I used to clean the bore the first time through and after that one session. Between the three cleanings I went through just about 3/4's of the can or more before the patches came out only lightly stained. By that time I figured anything less than solid blue/purple was OK or I'd go nutz if I tried to get too OCD over trying to make the bores sparkly clean.

I was OK with the idea that the bores came to me needing this amount of cleaning. What I'm not OK with in the idea of needing to repeat such a huge amount of cleaning after only a couple or three paper bundles of milsurp.

----------

As for accuracy I know that it's on a batch by batch sort of thing. But as often as I've read about someone with a good batch I've read of others, like me, that got a poor batch. The rifles might be Russian but it doesn't mean I need to play Russian Roulette with my ammo purchases.

So once I find out which of my two Mosins shoots the best with clean bores and my "100% non ferrous" reloads that rifle will never see milsurp ammo again while I own it. The hope being that the bore doesn't strip off and allow the deposition of all that copper like it seems to with the washed stuff.

The grease ring is an interesting idea. I'm assuming that it's some wax and lube combo which is soft but not too easily smeared. Otherwise it would quickly become a real mess in battle conditions or even bench shooting use.

Slamfire, when you say you "dipped" your bullets in those things how much did you leave on the surface? I'm going to guess that it was just a light smear of a coating and any gobs of excess were wiped off?

And I doff my shooting hat to you. That is some darn nice shooting for plain iron sights. I'm afraid my own aging eyeballs won't ever see the likes of that. But if I can manage 3'ish inches for groups at 100 I'd be ecstatic.

 

[Malamute]

Hoppes No 9 and Shooters Choice both clean corrosive priming residue well. Shooters Choice being stronger, and will clean jacket fouling better.

Hoppes was designed for corrosive priming (came about in 1903). It has changed some over time, it has less ammonia than in the past. Ammonia helps disolve jacket fouling.

I've used both of those with corrosive primed ammo and had zero problems. I've never used water for corrosive primed smokeless ammo, but have with black powder cartridge loads.

 

[briansmithwins]

From the MSDS it's unclear how good Hoppes No. 9 is at dissolving salts. It does have ammonia and ethanol in it but the freezing temp is so low that I can' imagine there is much water in the mix.

http://www.hoppes.com/Hoppes/media/Files/MSDS/Hoppes9/msds-no9gunborecleaner.pdf

BSW

 

[Bezoar]

few times ive used surplus corrosive, i always had loose primer pockets letting the action get filled with corrosive residue. As a result i dont shoot corrosive now.
But after 6 six years never seen rust by doing this

dissassemble mosin, put barrel, bolt and magazine group into bath tub filled with a few inches of hottish water. Let it soak while i wipe the stock down best as possible. Then pull the bolt apart and clean all the metal with black powder solvent. And that was followed up with #9 solvent and silicone.

*sarcastic voice over*
I dont know how greased fmj bullets were ever used, or considered to be safe, or FOUND to be safe to shoot when EVERY one reads their firearms owner manual and sees that its not safe to leave any grease or oil or lubricant inside the barrel. and thats its totally unsafe to put any kind of lubricant on a bullet.

 

[TimSr]

Please note that the ammonia does absolutely nothing to help the cleaning process.

I don't know what the corrosive chemical byproduct is in corrosive ammo, but I'm going to assume it it some kind of acid, in which case ammonia is prescribed to neautralize the acid and not as a cleaning agent. I used to work for a company that used lots of acids, and neautralizing these acids with ammonia was standard procedure before sending it away for disposal. Acids are on one end of the ph scale, and alkalines (ammonia) are on the other end.

 

[Panzerschwein]

Hot water and soap, or windex.

You want to FLUSH the bore to get the salt out. You really want to rinse it good, so rinse it, rinse it good! *cue Devo song now*

 

[Comrade Mike]

I gave up on surplus out of my M39's a long time ago.

 

[Paul7]

I gave up on surplus out of my M39's a long time ago.

For what reason?

What I don't get is if surplus ammo is such a horrible, rifle destroying thing, why for this ammo I just bought does it with 330 customer reviews get a 4.8/5 rating?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/440-rds-762x54r-147-grain-fmj-ammo-1-tin?a=555116

About the only people who didn't like it was because the can was damaged with it arrived, some said it shot as accurately as factory ammo.

 

[joem1945]

I shoot a lot of corrosive ammo in 91/30 and m44. I keep a bottle of windex with ammonia and add a little more ammonia to it. When I'm finished for the day I'll shoot five fast rounds ans have my cleaning rod ready wirg a wet patch. The barrel is hot enough to cause steam. I run two or three wet patches through, them two dry patches, then on oil soaked patch. Been doing it this way for over ten years and no rust yet.

 

[briansmithwins]

I don't know what the corrosive chemical byproduct is in corrosive ammo, but I'm going to assume it it some kind of acid, in which case ammonia is prescribed to neautralize the acid and not as a cleaning agent. I used to work for a company that used lots of acids, and neautralizing these acids with ammonia was standard procedure before sending it away for disposal. Acids are on one end of the ph scale, and alkalines (ammonia) are on the other end.

That was the assumption before WWII, when the corrosive effect wasn't really well understood. Which is why there were/are those alkaline solvents, many of which were made with water and worked.

They worked because the actual corrosive agent is salts left behind by the primer residue.

BSW

 

[RCArms.com]

As mentioned, water is the ticket for cleaning after corrosive ammo use.

I've even used a garden hose to flush out the corrosive salts.

Just remember to clean with solvents afterwards to displace the water.

 

[carbine85]

Sounds like a lot of you guys go through a lot of trouble to clean your rifle. Spray some windex down the tube, run a cleaning rod with any bore solvent and store it with some oil.

 

[W.E.G.]

Hot soapy water on any surface exposed to corrosive ammo.

Simple as that.

Which can actually be pretty complicated if the gun is a gas-operated gun, and the corrosive gas is spewed all through the gun.

Good luck with that.

 

[MMA1991]

Bring a bottle of Windex to the range with you and spray it down the barrel thru the receiver when you are thru for the day after removing the bolt and let it flow out the end of the barrel. I rotate the gun to ensure all of the barrel gets washed/rinsed clean. Do it when the barrel is still hot and the Windex will heat up and even boil in the barrel further assisting with its ability to clean out the salts. I then spray down the bolt face and wipe. Follow with a couple of dry patches thru the barrel and drive home and clean as normal.

Have been doing this for years with my two Mosins after shooting early 1950's vintage Bulgarian light ball 7.62X54R corrosive ammo.

Here's a neat trick someone showed me once. Take a nail and drive it thru a piece of wood so the majority of it is sticking out the other side. Take a round of ammo you think may be corrosive, remove the bullet and powder, place the empty shell casing with intact prime over the nail, and the then activate the primer allowing the primer residue to cover the exposed nail. Come back in 24 hrs and look at the nail. If the primer was corrosive, the nail will be coated in an even layer of rust in 24 hours. Indicative of what your barrel would look like in 24 hours if not properly cleaned after shooting corrosive ammo.

 

[Comrade Mike]

For what reason?

What I don't get is if surplus ammo is such a horrible, rifle destroying thing, why for this ammo I just bought does it with 330 customer reviews get a 4.8/5 rating?

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/product/index/440-rds-762x54r-147-grain-fmj-ammo-1-tin?a=555116

About the only people who didn't like it was because the can was damaged with it arrived, some said it shot as accurately as factory ammo.

Because I just don't like shooting it through my rifles. I keep a 50 round box of brass for each of my Finnish Mosins and neck size and hand load for each rifle individually. I don't treat my rifles as "plinkers". That's what AR's are for.

 

[Paul7]

Because I just don't like shooting it through my rifles. I keep a 50 round box of brass for each of my Finnish Mosins and neck size and hand load for each rifle individually. I don't treat my rifles as "plinkers". That's what AR's are for.

OK, personally I have no interest in reloading. One attraction to the Mosin/Finn is lots of cheap ammo.

I still say in a dry climate corrosive ammo is nothing to obsess over. My son foolishly never cleaned his Mosin after shooting corrosive ammo here in NM, and I never did see any rust on that rifle.

I took my new to me Finn to the range last Saturday, and didn't shoot past 50 yds., but had a group at that distance of under 1" using surplus Russian ammo. Here it is below appropriately sitting on a copy of "Frozen Hell", about the Winter War. I would assume it was similar ammo that was used by the Finnish sniper Simo Hayha to kill 542 Russians using open sights.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

I don't know what the corrosive chemical byproduct is in corrosive ammo, but I'm going to assume it it some kind of acid, in which case ammonia is prescribed to neautralize the acid and not as a cleaning agent. I used to work for a company that used lots of acids, and neautralizing these acids with ammonia was standard procedure before sending it away for disposal. Acids are on one end of the ph scale, and alkalines (ammonia) are on the other end.

It's salt. Sodium or potassium salt depending on the exact composition of the primer. The salt is hydrophilic and will attract moisture from humidity.

These primers gave more consistent ignition than contemporary non-corrosive primers giving better accuracy. They are still better than modern primers in extremely cold weather.

Mike

 

[Comrade Mike]

OK, personally I have no interest in reloading. One attraction to the Mosin/Finn is lots of cheap ammo.

I still say in a dry climate corrosive ammo is nothing to obsess over. My son foolishly never cleaned his Mosin after shooting corrosive ammo here in NM, and I never did see any rust on that rifle.

I took my new to me Finn to the range last Saturday, and didn't shoot past 50 yds., but had a group at that distance of under 1" using surplus Russian ammo. Here it is below appropriately sitting on a copy of "Frozen Hell", about the Winter War. I would assume it was similar ammo that was used by the Finnish sniper Simo Hayha to kill 542 Russians using open sights.

Your assumption would actually be wrong. Finns were issued home brewed 7.62x53r (you read that right) first with the D46 projectile and later the D166 projectile (my long range projectile). Captured ammunition was used and generally issued to MG crews and standard line infantry. Simo was much more likely to be throwing the former at the Russians. Simo likely never saw an M39 as production was halted with the onset of the winter war. A grand total of 10 were produced when he was off entering the history books.

Reloading for the Finnish M39 using D166 or D46 bullets will produce sub MOA groups that will make your jaw drop. Which is why I gave up on surplus ammunition. Once you cross that bridge and see what these rifles are actually capable of there's no going back.

 

[Paul7]

Your assumption would actually be wrong. Finns were issued home brewed 7.62x53r (you read that right) first with the D46 projectile and later the D166 projectile (my long range projectile). Captured ammunition was used and generally issued to MG crews and standard line infantry. Simo was much more likely to be throwing the former at the Russians. Simo likely never saw an M39 as production was halted with the onset of the winter war. A grand total of 10 were produced when he was off entering the history books.

I think they used a mix of both 53 & 54, certainly there was a lot of captured Russian material around. http://www.winterwar.com/Weapons/FinSmallArms/FinRifles.htm

The M39 was used in the Continuation War.