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Proposed Illinois Assault Rifle Ban - HB2632

Discussion in 'Legal' started by bad_dad_brad, Mar 2, 2003.

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  1. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    Here is the proposed bill to ban so called assault rifles in Illinois.

    http://www.legis.state.il.us/legisl...e=&SessionId=3&GA=93&DocTypeId=HB&DocNum=2632

    Now, what are you going to do?

    Let's say the bill passes. Let's say you have a pre legal AR-15. Let's say you decide to keep it, and hide it away in your closet until you can move it with you when you retire (just a few years). What can they do?

    A record of purchase of the exact model exists only with my dealer and the Feds via the United States Department of the Treasury, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms firearms transaction record form. But Illinois only knows I bought a long gun on such and such a date vis-a-vis the State Police records check that I qualify to buy a firearm.

    So, Illinois does not know what kind of long guns I possess save some unworkable database cross check with the Feds. Am I off base on this one? Does the State of Illinois know exactly what guns I have purchased in Illinois?

    If they don't, why not keep your banned assault rifle? What are they going to do? Subpoena all of the gun dealers in Illinois' records. What probable cause? Are they going to Subpoena Federal records? Same answer. Are they going to come knocking on your door? Same answer.

    So I say keep your so called assault rifle hidden away until you can move out of state in a few years.

    Fellow THR members, is there a flaw in my logic?
     
  2. Watchman

    Watchman Member

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    Banning an "Assault"rifle dosent mean you have to get rid of it. It just means that they can be no longer legally sold by an FFL holder from the date that the law was enacted.

    If you legally owned it prior to the law, they cannot make a law making it illegal to possess. Its called expost defacto.

    If some ingorant cop confinscates it because its been "banned"your lawyer can tear him a new one. Of course, it may cost you a few grand to get it back. You would think that by now the cops would know that but there are those that would take it just to make you spend the money to get it back.
     
  3. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    Ah Watchman,

    I wish it were true, but the proposed law in Illinois explicitly bans the posession of so called assault rifles, and the AR-15 is explicitly cited in the proposed bill. Seems criminal in a way. Here is the text:

    (c) Except as provided in subsection (e), 90 days after
    the effective date of this amendatory Act of the 93rd General
    Assembly, it is unlawful for any person within this State, to
    knowingly manufacture, deliver, or possess or cause to be
    manufactured, delivered, or possessed, a semiautomatic
    assault weapon, a large capacity ammunition feeding device,
    or an assault weapon attachment.
    (d) Any person who knowingly possesses a semiautomatic
    assault weapon, large capacity ammunition feeding device, or
    assault weapon attachment must, within 90 days after the
    effective date of this amendatory Act of the 93rd General
    Assembly, destroy the weapon or device, render it permanently
    inoperable, relinquish it to a law enforcement agency, or
    remove it from this State.
    (e) A person has an affirmative defense to an alleged
    violation of subsection (c) of this Section if he or she
    lawfully possessed or delivered the semiautomatic assault
    weapon, large capacity ammunition feeding device, or assault
    weapon attachment while in the performance of his or her
    official duties as a peace officer, correctional institution
    employee or official, or member of the Armed Services or
    Reserve Forces of the United States, or of the Illinois
    National Guard.
    (f) Sentence.
    (1) A person who manufactures, possesses, or
    delivers a semiautomatic assault weapon in violation of
    this Section commits a Class 3 felony for a first
    violation and a Class 2 felony for a second or subsequent
    violation or for the possession or delivery of 2 or more
    of these weapons at the same time.

    Seem pretty clear to me.
     
  4. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    Sorry, but the term is "ex post facto."
     
  5. Zundfolge

    Zundfolge Member

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    bad_dad_brad, if it passes and you're really worried, just ship that AR to me here in the free state of Colorado.

    I promise to feed it regularly and give it a good home until you are able to make your escape from the People's Republic of Illinois, at which time I'll gladly ship it to whatever free state you relocate to.

    :D
     
  6. Travis McGee

    Travis McGee Member

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    It's my contention that we are always only one "super-Columbine" away from a total nationwide ban on all "assault rifles", which will be defined as all semi-automatic rifles.

    That is the thesis of my novel "Enemies Foreign And Domestic". http://matthewbracken.web.aplus.new/

    One week after an "assault rifle massacre" in a football stadium, congress passes a complete ban on all semi-automatic rifles. This leads quickly to armed resistance against the federal government by Americans who believe the stadium massacre was engineered as a retext to lead to the disarming of America.
     
  7. schild

    schild Member

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    My original plan was to try and locate a bank, in the area I plan to move to, that possibly had safedeposit boxes large enough to fit a disassembled AR15,Benelli M1S90, etc. Largest boxes that I've found were 10X10X21". So the next plan might ;) be to hide guns inside a wall. Don't forget about the magazine ban also.:cuss: Now we know what nazi Germany was like!:banghead: :cuss:
     
  8. Airwolf

    Airwolf Member

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    When the time comes to bury your guns, it's time to use them...
     
  9. schild

    schild Member

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    The time to use them will be when the Blue Helmets come up the drive!
     
  10. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    I checked with my gun dealer today. He is aware of the situation. Neither BATF or the State of Illiniois know what kind of firearms you own. Not model, or serial number. All the State of Illinois knows is whether you bought a long gun or a hand gun and they are not supposed to keep that information (HA!).

    The only person who has that information is the dealer himself. The dealer being an FFL, the BATF can on demand, ask for that information. The State of Illinois would have to have a subpoena for some reason, and if they came to your house, they would have to have probable cause and a search warrant.

    If the dealer goes out of business, without selling his business, he must turn all paperwork over to BATF.

    Obviously if you were to commit a crime, they will get your records, but if you are a law abiding citizen, all the ban means is that you have to put your so called assault rifle in the closet. Sure it is still a crime, but who is going to know? Nobody if you are discrete. Of course the ban on hi-cap mags is totally ridiculous as you can buy a pre-ban without even showing a FOID.

    On a side note, there is a sales clerk at my dealers, a nice young kid, who came to Illinois from Washington state, because of his spouse's job. He was absolutely appalled at the Illinois gun laws, had no idea what a FOID was, and the only firearms ID you have to have in Washington state is a CCW which is pretty much shall issue.

    Go figure. Hmmm, I don't hear about cowboy shootouts in the very big city of Seattle do you? Chicago, Daley, Illinois big feeling politics, a sad sad joke as Chicago is currently the murder capital of the U.S. Chicago, "The City That Does NOT Work." Read Mayor Daley's double talk:

    http://www.ci.chi.il.us/Mayor/2002Press/news_press_policegraduation.html

    More:

    http://www.chicagomag.com/stories/1202daley.htm
     
  11. AZ Jeff

    AZ Jeff Member

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    Bad Dad Brad said: "Neither BATF or the State of Illiniois know what kind of firearms you own. Not model, or serial number. All the State of Illinois knows is whether you bought a long gun or a hand gun and they are not supposed to keep that information (HA!).

    The only person who has that information is the dealer himself. The dealer being an FFL, the BATF can on demand, ask for that information. The State of Illinois would have to have a subpoena for some reason, and if they came to your house, they would have to have probable cause and a search warrant."
    +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
    Brad, I hate to say this, but the State of Ill. has already been digging around in some FFL records, looking for owners of expired FOID cards. Mayor Daley and the Ill. St. Police have been doing this under some program that has a name of "Operation somthing-or-other".

    (Side question----Anyone remember the name of that program Daley was running back in 2002?)

    My point here is that, if they can go rifling thru ATF4473 forms for FOID information, why not just expand that search to include any and all "assault weapons"?

    Given the mindset in the Il. St. Police (and the new Governor's promises), I would worry about the sanctity of the FFL records being kept private from state authorities.
     
  12. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    AZ Jeff,

    They still have to go to the dealer to get sales records. If I am clean they have no legal reason to research me. If the State is willing to break laws, well, I will hear about it long before they get around to my lowly little gun collection. By that time, it will be somewhere in Indiana.

    I will consult some more with some of my independant FFL folks.

    I am still hopefull this bill will not pass. My dealer thinks it won't but if it is, he thinks the 90 day clause will be thrown out and the law won't be grandfathered. Just no more new sales.

    Man this is just so sad. Here I am, a guy with only a couple of traffic tickets over thirty years ago, a law abiding tax payer, worried about being a felon because of property I purchased responsibly and legally.
     
  13. MN_Strelok

    MN_Strelok Member

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    They plan to. Go here and read section 30. For the lazy folks, here's my synopsis: They are trying to create a statewide database of all firearm transfers. Each record will include, among other things, "the date of the sale or transfer; the identity and address of the dealer; the name, address, age, and occupation of the transferee; the price of the firearm; and the kind, description and number of the firearm." Transferers will be required to submit this information within 24 hours of a transfer. Oh, and to prime this thing all FFLs will be required to turn over this information (culled from 4473s) for the last two years.
     
  14. MN_Strelok

    MN_Strelok Member

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    I forgot to mention the FFLs have only 30 days from the passage of the law to gather and submit the info from two years' worth of 4473s. Glad I'm not a dealer... :uhoh:
     
  15. Airwolf

    Airwolf Member

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    Aren't 4473's a federal document used for federally mandated checks? How can the state unilaterally step in and use information gathered for a federal program?

    If my assumption is correct, couldn't Ashcroft and the DOJ step in to prevent their use (as they are in California with CAL DOJ using federal records illegally).
     
  16. bad_dad_brad

    bad_dad_brad Member

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    MN_Strelok,

    Pretty obscure and I think you are reaching. I still think the Man would have to want to be after YOU or ME to make that connection. Why would they care about a lowly old high taxed upper middle class white guy like me? They make far more money off my taxes, state, real estate, and sales, then they would by bothering me.

    But like I said, I have enough FFL connections to know if they are poking around. Indiana lockers are only an hour and a half away.
     
  17. MN_Strelok

    MN_Strelok Member

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    I'm not sure I follow. You asked if the state had a way to figure out what guns you have, and I posted a link to pending legislation that would ("ideally") create a detailed database of all firearm purchases in the last two years. What is obscure and how am I reaching?

    I never said they would come hunt you down. If you're looking for a reason to be nervous, I suppose you could think about the fact most of these laws come right out of Chicago: Home of CAGE.

    Personally, I'm doing a lot of waiting and watching. (And a fair amount of politicking.)
     
  18. MN_Strelok

    MN_Strelok Member

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    My (possibly misinformed) understanding: Illinois state law requires records of all transfers. FFLs tend to use their bound book to satisfy this requirement. Therefore, should the state demand a copy of the state mandated records, the FFLs will end up using their bound books/4473s.
     
  19. EJ

    EJ Member

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    If one has a banned hi-cap or "assault rifle" They can find out about it--

    And it's not worth becomming a felon over--

    You'll have to sell it or move it to Wisc or In
    Anything else is just plain foolish--

    Sorry--but it is--

    It's alot more pleasant and cheaper to move than to sit in jail--

    We're in it deep here in Illinois--

    I do think that the final measure--if it passes -- will prob grandfather previous ownership--This is the first draft and the "fatherless-children" pushing this are (unfortunately) bright enough to put in enough garbage that they can negotiate and "be reasonable"


    Remember -- it's easier to fight these intrusions on our rights if we're not already in jail and felons--:cuss:
     
  20. Airwolf

    Airwolf Member

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    Don’t forget what happened here in the PRK. They said “Hey, don’t worry. We just need you to register all those evil “assault weapons. No one is interested in taking them away from you.†Yeah right. Then came “Oh, we’re terribly sorry but we’ve decided a particular type of SKS is now a DD. We can’t let the peasants, er, *CITIZENS* have something like that. Get rid of them…OR ELSE.â€

    Repeat after me: Registration ALWAYS leads to confiscation.

    It may take 2, 10 or 30 years but once the state puts a list together than has your name next to the firearms you own, the countdown to confiscation has commenced.

    Remember, it doesn’t always have to come in the form of a SWAT raid or letter telling where to surrender it. It can be like here where you cannot even legally bequeath your “assault weapon†to your family after you die. It must be turned in or sold out of state instead.

    Talk about talking the long view of things! Waiting for those that “threaten†the state (in their eyes) to DIE in order to disarm their posterity.

    Confiscation comes in many forms.
     
  21. standingbear

    standingbear Member

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    exact-amundo

    just how do any of you think the good (and i use that VERY loosly)governing bodies of California knew where the now banned guns were?its called under the guise of probable cause(to get the search warrant),they can come and search your house now for the guns so banned(because why..you registerd them) and if they find anything else,well maybe they can take them too-and youll maybe become an instant criminal and then guess what happens to your future rights..first they pass a generalized definition,ask for registration then pass a more specif definition of whats now legal,they can change that definition at a wim.just ask the many people in kali.:fire:fight it with petitions and calls before it passes.moving away wont stop it,itll evenually come to your new state and mine,then well all have to do something.best to stop it now.
     
  22. GnL

    GnL Member

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    Rather than everyone trying to figure out a way to circumvent the law once it's passed, how about trying to prevent its passage in the first place?

    For every post here on this forum, why not call your state legislators? If they meet no resistance with this nonsense, you can bet that more is coming down the pike.
     
  23. 55645

    55645 Member

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    Call or write if you think it will do any good, just don't give 'em your real name. The names of those calling or writing to oppose the "assault weapons" ban may be turned over to the State Police. In the case of my own rep & senator, I would bet on it.
     
  24. Sidetracker

    Sidetracker Member

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    How can the State(Government) do that? The State can do what ever is legal. Whats legal? Whatever the law says. Who makes the laws? The State. See the problem here?
     
  25. SaintofKillers

    SaintofKillers Member

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    Put on your tinfoil hat before you write your legislators, otherwise the black helicopters may see you.:rolleyes:
     
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