prvi bullets and reloading data for mosin

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fireflyfather

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looking at buying some Privi Partisan bullets (.311 150grn FMJBT) for reloading my mosin (Izzy), for strictly plinking. This will be my first purchase of reloading components.

I don't care about accuracy (yet), but I'm concerned about not finding reloading recipes for these bullets, since most seem to be bullet specific. Do I look for an identical grain in a similar bullet shape (Spitzer?), or is it more involved?

These bullets are about 13 cents vs 20 cents each, so it will mean a great deal of money for me if I can use the Prvi bullets. Any thoughts?

Also, does the primer have to match the recipe, or can I buy cheap primers as well (looking for cheap here, not accurate...but definitely not looking for a face full of hot gas or shrapnel)

(will be using lee reloader...mallet fun).
 
As an afterthought, does anyone use wolf primers? Does anyone even publish official recipes for wolf primers?
 
Um, does ANYONE use Prvi Partisan bullts or Wolf primers? Is that a recipe for disaster? Need info.
 
You don't need to watse time and effort worrying about matching components...it doesn't matter. I don't even do that for my shotgun reloading. People make reloading out to be more complicated than it really is. [I know I will be flamed for saying that but go ahead...I've been reloading for 33 years this way and it really doesn't matter]

If you want to do some plinking, then try some reduced loads for your Mosin, such as "The Load" of 13 grains of Red Dot (this is for ANY 30-caliber class rifle cartridge, not just the Mosin) under your 150-grain bullet (lead or jacketed bullets, it doesn't matter; fps is reduced about 100 FPS for using jacketed bullets).

Do some research on Red Dot, Unique and Blue Dot for reduced rifle loads. The Blue Dot charges will be about 20-22 grains but check to be sure.

One forum thread about this ("The Load" with Red Dot) is here:

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2751

And for the Blue Dot loads, go over to the Accurate Reloading forums and search for them: http://www.accuratereloading.com/

There's a guy over there who did lots of work on using Blue Dot for lots of rifles...try to find his posts...can't recall his name but search the Accurate forum using key words like "blue dot reduced loads" or something like that there. [EDIT: The guy's screen name is "seafire" and/or "B17G" so look for posts by him re: Blue Dot]

ATTN: You must register to search the Accurate Forums...sorry.

As for full-power loads using jacketed bullets only, it still doesn't matter...use whatever cases/bullets/primers (standard rfile, of course, not magnum) you want. Just match the powder charge to the bullet weight and it's that simple.

Personally, I'd buy quality (non-corrosive/boxer-primed) ammo for my full-power loads and store that stuff away for more serious work (!) and for plinking shoot reduced Red Dot/Blue Dot (or Unique, Green Dot) loads as above for most of my shooting...it'll be easier on the gun AND shoulder.

Good luck,

-- John D.

P.S. The main problem I had with the 7.62x54R was finding bullets for it (proper diameter and weights). No, not the lightweight 7.62x39 bullets for that gun but REAL bullets for the 7.64x54R. Even re: casting bullets you'll need to look hard for the proper diameter mould, and as for jackted bullets, they are not easily found either. I don't know why more makers don't produce jacketed bullets for the 7.62.54R WITH ALL THOSE OLD MOSIN-NAGANT RIFLES OUT THERE! They make some for the 7.62x39 but pretty much ignore the 7.62x54R. I gave MY Mosin away mainly because of the dearth of components out there.
-- JD
 
cloudcraft-
Is there a simple reason why the 125 gr .310" bullets for 7.62x39 won't work well for 7.62x54R? I made my first 7.62x39 rounds 2 or 3 weeks ago (24 grains of IMR4198 under 125gr spire points) and am getting comfortable with making small quantities of those. Last weekend I made maybe a dozen 7.62x54R using 50-some grains of BL-C(2) powder under the same .310" 125 gr spire points I used for the 7.62x39, and they seemed ok for plinking anyway.

What would be a "real" bullet for 7.62x54R? My interest in reloading it is mostly to be able to make my own supply of plinking and whatever else ammo, especially if the supply of cheap mil surplus dries up. If I can make better ammo I'm up for it, but I was thinking of buying 500 or so cheap bullets for 7.62x39 (golden west brass I think, the only thing is they're 0.311" if that makes any difference) and making them do double duty as bullets for my 7.62x54R loads too. Any problems you know of with doing that?
 
cloudcroft-
x54r is a big case to put only 13 gr of anything in. Normal loads usually range in the mid forties to the low fifties. Loads that low can be dangerous, definitely not for the novice.

fireflyfather-
As long as you are conservative, the Prvi bullets are fine, just use data from a similar shaped bullet and work up.

Wolf primers are fine, a wee bit soft for my pleasure but they are cheap and available. The massive hit from a Mosin firing pin has yet to pierce one, and they all go bang.
 
From what I've read, you should be using the same bullets as .303 or 7.7mm Arisaka (.310 diameter). The bullets for most AK/SKS rounds are .311 diameter, so far as I can tell. The bullet weights I've seen range from 147 to 200 grains in factory/military loads for 7.62x54R. Loads should be similar to 30-06, 308, etc, but slightly reduced for safety sake at first. I'd be worried about using 13 grains because of squibs. That doesn't sound nearly enough.

I just wanted to make sure those bullets would be all right. I guess the only question I have left is how long to make the cartridge. If I seat the bullets too deeply, it could cause overpressure, but can I measure bullet length by say, czech silvertip length (147grn FMJ vs 150grn SP)? That sounds reasonable, but I'd feel a lot better with some advice on that too.

I appreciate you guys giving me the straight dope.
 
trueblue1776,

Well, it's not big enough...13 grains of Red Dot is just fine. I guess us old guys know about it more than younger people do but 13 definitely IS enough. Again though, velocities are reduced as I stated earlier. But so what, for plinking? Do some research on it for yourself.

"The Load" has been around for a LONG time now...it works in any 30-cal. (or 3-line rifles as per Russian nomenclature) class cartridge case, as I said. ALL the milsurp bolt action rifles I am talking about, 8mm Mauser, Swiss K31s, Mosins, .308, .30-06...even calibers based on the 30-06 case such as the 270 Winchester, etc. ALL of them.

But if you are concerned about filling up the case more (but "detonation" is a non-issue), that's where Blue Dot comes in...except velocities are greater.


xsquidgator,

I suppose those small AK bullets would be suitable for plinking, but that's about it. I mean so would those round lead balls as are sometimes used in plinking or so-called "small game getter" loads (with reduced charges of course) in 30-cal. rifles, but they are not for serious work.

But when I say "real bullets" for the Mosin, I am talking about heavier military/hunting weights...not the tiny lightweight and smaller-diameter spitwads used in the AKs/SKSs even if their diameter was suitable for the Mosin...which they aren't. In this case, 7.62 in one gun is NOT 7.62 in the other. Why? I don't know, that's just how it is. Maybe it's like the "8mm Mauser" J and S bores: They're both "8mm Mauser" but the bullets are NOT the same diameters (.318 vs. .323?).

Go figure.

But I advise you to slug your Mosin's bore to find out exactly what diameter bullet you need; that's the conclusive way to do it. If it's .310, fine, if it's .311 or .312, then find those. With all the assorted Mosins produced in the last 100+ years -- as with all the Lee Enfields and their well-known bore size variations even greater than with Mosins -- and the crappy "quality-control" of many Russian made guns during the war years, there are sure to be a variety of bore diameters with Mosins. So rather than guessing, slug your bore.

Just read up on all this...do the research for yourself. I was just giving the OP some viable and practical options.


fireflyfather,

You need to determine the freebore of your particular gun's chamber...you MAY have to seat the bullets WAY OUT there to even come close to being near the rifling due to excessive throat erosion (or sloppy factory "specs"), especially as found in many old surplus rifles...after all, who knows where they have been or how they were used/abused.

And the average ignorant conscript Russian soldier back then wasn't careful in cleaning the bores (if done at all) so damage often was done. This is one more reason for a longer -- and therefore by necessity a heavier bullet in the Mosin -- which would make it possible to seat it farther out (as long as it will fit into the magazine) to make up for excessive freebore (well, MOST of it I guess...some chambers have so much freebore you CAN'T make all of it up). A smaller/lighter AK/SKS type bullet would be impossible to seat further out.



Good luck to all of you guys,

-- John D.
 
My gun is a 1943 Izzy, and looks to be in great shape. Wartime manufacture, yes, and it IS counterbored, but otherwise looks like it was treated very well. It's fired factory ammo just fine (prvi 180 grn SP). No bulged cases, primer trouble, gas leakage, etc. I'm more worried about seating the round too deeply and causing overpressure than I am not making contact with rifling. Should I be worried about that? I am more concerned about safety than accuracy at this point.
 
You may be too concerned about safety. Yes, it happens, and yes, you can be (and that's one reason I NEVER go to shooting ranges, just out in the desert to do my shooting). That's my opinion and I'm sticking with it.

But seriously, I didn't say you needed to make CONTACT with the rifling, just get "close" to it. Best accuracy is just short of the rifling. If you just want the bullet to move down the barrel and exit (plinking) then it really doesn't matter.

That aside, however, why don't you just stick with the OAL data? Load up those rounds as per the official OAL data given for said caliber and be done with it. Unless you have lots of experience reloading I wouldn't vary from OAL too much, and in your skittish case, I think OAL is what YOU should stick to.

Lots of times reloaders have to adjust this and that to get rounds to fit in the magazine, for accuracy and/or be just short of rifling contact -- especially in milsurp bolt rifles as I said earlier (for my newer bolt guns, I just use a similar factory cartridge, same bullet weight and point, to set bullet seating depth of my seating die stem) -- so an exact OAL, actually measuring it, is somethng I have NEVER worried about or even done in my 33 years of reloading. And since I am not a target-shooter or benchrest guy, I don't care to fuss with or get anal about my ammo.

But in your case, since you seem a bit worried, just go by the OAL for said cartridge and see how they work. If the results look good to you and are to your satisfaction, then mass-produce them.

That's all I can tell you on this subject.

Good luck,

-- John D.

P.S. I am not telling anyone here to do as I do re: MY particular reloading practices, I'm just saying that there is room for some "adjusting" here and there (unless you're a novice). I would only be worried about REALLY EXCESSIVE bullet seating, but moving the bullet in/out slightly to make adjustments is no big deal. Reloading isn't that difficult.
 
Thanks for the info. I plan on reading a reloading manual cover to cover before I do anything, but it always seems to sink in better with concise answers to specific questions.
 
Loaded my first rounds last night. Range report sometime this weekend.

My mom passed away on Wednesday, so this was very theraputic; took my mind off of things, let me concentrate on something. Don't worry. I double checked my powder loads.
 
Just one word of caution, Blue Dot loads are not low pressure loads. I use BD in 223, 308, 8X57 and this weekend I'll try some in 7tcu. But it's real easy to double charge if you aren't paying attention and a double charge of BD would be an ugly thing.
 
Using red dot. 13 grains, measured on a Lyman 500 manual scale (use dippers and tap in powder slowly to get consistent weight).
 
Um, does ANYONE use Prvi Partisan bullts or Wolf primers? Is that a recipe for disaster? Need info.
Click to expand...

Where can I get the Prvi Partisan bullet ? I could not get anymore of them since Widener no longer offer this in their catalog.
 
OK, just got back from the range. Fired 20 factory Prvi. 180gr sp for reference, and they were stout, but manageable. Out of a 1943 91/30.

Then fired the 20 reloads:
once fired Prvi brass, 150gr SP (Prvi), Winchester LR primers, 13 grains of red dot. Uncrimped. OAL matched to factory ammo by eye, not measured (internal cartridge capacity would be larger, rather than smaller, w/ smaller bullet).

One squib (my bad, did not charge case!), but I caught it and knocked out the bullet into breech with one tap from bore before continuing shooting. Accuracy was roughly half as good as factory ammo. Hit low, but adjusted that by setting sights to 400 meters to get center of group at POA. Recoil was about like a .223.

Was getting roughly 4 inch groups at 25 yards with reloads. Would have been better, but the only close-by range only allows standing or sitting fire (with a bench at the WRONG height for bench fire).

Going to play with powder loads a bit to try and shrink those groups, and find someplace within 60 minutes to fire from prone or bench.

Pretty happy with this batch, nonetheless. Need to re-evaluate my procedures for loading to prevent squib (not sure where that happened), but otherwise all went bang, no kabooms, and were certainly MOBG at 50 yards or so.
 
Graf and Sons has PRVI bullets. Just got some 7mm to fireform my 7tcu with. Very disappointed. Weighing 20 pieces I came up with weights ranging from 137.5 to 143.3gr. SP's were deformed and bases are off level. Good thing I'm only fireforming with them.
 
I only had a chance to weigh three tonight, but only ranged from 149-149.5 grains. Did not seem off level, or to have deformed SP. *shrug* Maybe you got a bad batch, or their 7mm mold was bad. I'm pretty sure my *****ty groups were a factor of my poor reloading and shooting skills more than anything else. I'm going to adjust powder load for better groups, but other than that, just practice.
 
Kinda has me baffled too. I've run their factory loads thru several rifles and had pretty decent luck with them. Maybe these will shoot good, just look bad.
 
I weighed and looked over a few more bullets, and they seem fine, but I'm getting a weird result when loading with a lee loader. I'm loading with just a hair of the crimp groove inside the neck, mostly out (just like the factory ammo), but some rounds the crimp groove all but disappears inside the case neck. Now, I've trimmed the cases, so I don't THINK it's the case necks that are a problem. I've also checked random bullets by eye to see if it's merely a bad bunch of bullets. Neither seems to be the problem (and no, I haven't been adjusting the loader itself, and yes, I have been tapping the bullet rammer down completely). I noticed this happening BEFORE I crimped them, so I'm kind of at a loss.

Weird. I'm gonna have to be very careful with the next batch to see what the problem is, and I need to get a set of calipers now, too.
 
Wow, you seem to have all the luck this week. I have a spare (that squib, remember?), that barely touched the rifling. Should I send it to you?

;)


ETA:
oh wait, never mind. I don't think my .311 bullet would work real well in your 7mm.
 
Um, also mentioned this in the reduced load 30-06 thread, but I found out today that a double charge of 13 grains of red dot (26 grains total), WILL NOT OVERFLOW in a 7.62x54R case. It barely filled up the shoulder of the cartridge. I was checking on what I had read, just for safety's sake (that squib I had really made me think), and I tested this to be sure. Turns out I'm glad I did. I could clearly see the powder at the base of the neck without shining in a light, and I measured the powder load twice, after balancing the scale for true zero.

Maybe red dot is less dense these days, or I got a really dense batch. Still, I spent almost an hour this afternoon developing a safety procedure for preventing a double or zero charge. Since I am using a lee loader, I decided to weigh the powder BEFORE even touching the brass. New procedure is like this:

1. Decap, size & prime
2. Load individual rounds:
A) Weigh powder
B) Pick up and shake empty brass to make sure empty
C) Insert brass into Lee Loader setup
D) Pour powder, tap with rubber mallet to eliminate stuck granules
E) Drop & seat bullet immediately
F) Inspect loaded round, shake to insure powder is present, and not a double charge.
G) Crimp if desired

This way I check the case for powder twice. I could visually inspect before dropping the bullet, but unless I am interrupted, I don't see a way to double charge or zero charge if I consider the powder & bullet 1 action. If I am interrupted, simply dump the powder back in the scale and start from scratch, EVERY time.

Any critique?
 
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