PTR 91 or Romanian PSL?

[coosbaycreep]

I already have the standard PTR91, 21 mags, hensholdt(?) "sniper" scope, and about 1100 rounds of ammo. Unfortunately, most of my ammo is south african surplus, which doesn't cycle reliably in my gun. Of course I didn't know that SA ammo would be unreliable until I had already spend about $500 on it, and was told so by PTR after emailing them and complaining about how my $1100 rifle had suddenly become a gnarly looking single shot.

Other than with the SA ammo, I don't have any complaints about the accuracy or reliability of my PTR, although I have only put 200-300 rounds through it so far. There's a lot of things I'd like to do it to make it better (trigger job, stock, bipod handguard, etc), but after pricing all that stuff, and the fact that it costs me about $17 to load up a magazine, I'm really starting to like this gun less and less, and that's why I'm considering switching calibers/guns.

The main purpose of this gun is a full power .30 cal "SHTF" rifle BTW.

I've done a fair amount of research on PSLs in the past, and there seems to be a lot of conflicting reports. From what I've read, they shoot anywhere from 1 MOA to 4" groups, with 2" groups being about normal. I think my PTR is suppose to shoot 1-2" groups, so the PSL is accurate enough as far as I'm concerned, especially since I'm a lousy shot anyway.

I also understand that most people claiming 2" with the PSL are using the cheap corrosive ammo. If I get a PSL, I will probably stock up on wolf ammo instead (which is more than the corrosive stuff, but still cheaper than remington/winchester/federal .308 required to work reliably in my PTR), as I'm rather lazy, and don't want to shoot corrosive ammo through a $750 gun. Also, I already know to only use light ammo in the PSL.

My main concern is reliability and safety. I know the PSL is based on the AK action, but is it as reliable as a regular AK? I've read posts in the past about firing out of battery too. Is this still a problem? Is the quality of the PSL as varied as it is between Romanian AKs, and is it common to find a lemon?

How does the PSL scope compare to the PTR hensholdt scope?

Are there any 20 round mags available for the PSL? I've only seen 10 rounders, and personally, I think any proper battle rifle should hold at least 20 rounds, although I'd give up capacity for something I could afford to shoot.

How's the ergonomics on the PSL? I was starting to warm up to the awkwardness of the PTR, but now I'm really starting to hate it.

How's the recoil of the PSL? The PTR 91 is really bad from a rest I think, and gives me a headache after very few rounds.

Basically the main reasons I'm thinking about switching guns is because of ammo cost, ergonomics, and reliability (because of the poor reliability of "affordable" ammo in the PTR). So, having said all that, and considering the fact that I could buy a new PSL and a lot of ammo if I sold my PTR/ammo, what should I do, stick with the gun I can't afford to shoot and don't like shooting when I do shoot it? Or ditch the wanna-be HK for a wanna-be commie sniper rifle?

The PSL and the PTR are the only two guns I'm interested in too. If I keep the PTR and all the SA ammo, I might eventually buy a saiga .308 too, but I'm not interested in any other guns/calibers right now.

P.S. I'd also like to post a poll between the PTR and PSL, but don't know how to.

 

[bk1]

I want to really start getting the word out about the issues that PTR has with ammo.

I avoided the ones on their naughty list and bought a bunch of PRVI M80 ammo which has a reputation as being good ammo.

However, that does not cycles properly either.

So, since I didn't see any info 6 months ago when I was shopping for a semi auto .308 rifles that warned of how picky the PTR is with ammo, I want to make everyone aware.

I don't want to have my go to rifle being so picky with ammo. I was expecting a super reliable rifle and got a cranky, picky, pain in the rear.

 

[.45&TKD]

I haven't heard of the PTR's being picky about ammo.

If you can't run surplus though it, what good is it.

I actually bought one a while ago and have not fired it, yet.

I'll let you know how it goes with Portugese Surplus and South African surplus.

Did you guys lube it up good? Does it need to be broken in?

 

[coosbaycreep]

I didn't hear about any problems with PTRs being picky about ammo either before I bought mine, but PTR's website has a long list of ammo that they recommend against, and if you send it in for repairs and they find the problem to be that you were using any ammo other than commercial federal/remington/winchester, then they will charge you for labor and ammo for testing it.

The person who responded to my email was rude too. Not the kind of customer service I'd expect from a manufacturer of rifles in that price range, especially when M1As, FALs, and saigas are more popular.

 

[PandaBearBG]

I don't own either but I have read good things about the PSL and so so about the PTR, my vote PSL.

 

[Big_E]

I would say keep the PTR. Sell the ammo someone will definitely buy it. But also, why not just buy a PSL as well.

 

[starkadder]

My vote would be to keep the mags and the ammo, sell the PTR and buy a C91 or a CETME, and some more ammo and mags. I have both and the only ammo that I have ever had issues with is commblock steel cased.(I don't buy it, had some given to me) I'm sure the Century haters will chime in, but I have had great luck with both rifles. My C91 has over 2500 rounds through it and the CETME is up to about 1200 and they both run great. In my opinion the PSL is a great gun for what it was intended to be used as, a DMR but it is a little long and unwieldy for a buggout, HD, or SHTF rifle, but thats just my opinion.


This is this! It's not something else, it's this!

Don't pull it if you don't plan to use it, and don't use it if you don't plan to kill!

ALWAYS REMEMBER OUR MEN AND WOMEN OVER THERE.

REMEMBER THE 2,974 AMERICANS THAT WERE MURDERED EIGHT YEARS AGO TODAY. NEVER FORGET, AND NEVER FORGIVE.

 

[DRYHUMOR]

Well, if the PTR and ammo are for zombie attacks, just stick it somewhere and forget about it. Then it doesn't cost anything to feed.

I haven't fed my .308's in quite some time. They don't look like they are starving.

That frees up some cash for other things.

 

[Retro]

It is absolutely unacceptable for the company to claim that PTR91 will not function with certain NATO surplus ammo, since the company also claims that PTR91 is made to the exact specifications of HK91, and if so, PTR91 should cycle on all surplus NATO rounds since G3 was designed for those ammos. Older JDL PTR91 functioned flawlessly with surplus ammo, and since the change of ownership, this new problem occurred. The company should really examine their QA of manufacturing before pointing their fingers at the ammunitions, which is both comical and infuriating! Imagine if BMW posts out a warning: "BMW 3, 5, and 7 series can only run on Shell gasoline, and if you run other lesser gas brands such as Chevron, the inferior quality gasoline will screw up your in-line 6 engine, and all repair cost will not be covered by the factory warranty and you must pay for it." This is nothing short of being ludicrous.

You can read their comical ammo warning statement here:

http://www.ptr91.com/techinfo.html

The company should note that people who purchased PTR91 are in the market for more accurate semi-auto platforms in 308 such as the AR10 and M1A (and possibly FAL). In the old days, many people would still purchase PTR91 over FAL because of its improved accuracy and equal reliability to FAL. Historically, the FAL people have always belittled the PTR91 for its flimpsy stamped metal receiver whereas FAL is forged and machined. With the advent of this new failure to feed ammo for which the rifle is designed for, PTR91 has lost its competitive edge to FAL in terms of reliability. While the less informed will now purchase FAL because of reliability issues, the more informed will now purchase M1A or AR10 for equal if not better accuracy, better worksmanship, and definitely superior reliability.

It is a tragedy that PTR91 have decided to blame the ammo rather than QA their manufacturing process to see if the extractor is properly tensioned or if the chamber fluting is probably cut. It this keeps up, the company will cease to exist as people will stay away from PTR91 all together.

 

[Z-Michigan]

I had a PTR. It worked 100% with steel cased Brown Bear (Barnaul). I suggest you buy some of that to try and sell your surplus ammo if the Bear works. Your SA surplus will probably sell for as much or more than the cost of Bear on a per-cartridge basis.

 

[.45&TKD]

...since the change of ownership, this new problem occurred.

When did the ownership change?

When did the problems begin?

I bought my PTR91 new 2 years ago from CDNN and have not shot it, yet.

 

[Retro]

It is the AW serial number ones that were not made by JDL but by PTR91.Inc. People believe that the chamber flutes were not properly cut by Thompson Center, causing extraction problems of NATO 7.62. Instead of addressing the chamber problem, PTR91.Inc decided to blame the surplus ammo and refused to accept responsibility.

 

[.45&TKD]

It is the AW serial number ones that were not made by JDL but by PTR91.Inc. People believe that the chamber flutes were not properly cut by Thompson Center, causing extraction problems of NATO 7.62. Instead of addressing the chamber problem, PTR91.Inc decided to blame the surplus ammo and refused to accept responsibility.

Great. Mines an AW serial number.

Should I sell it while it is unfired? Or should I run some South African surplus through it and see what happens? Would it sell for more unfired to warrant not testing it?

The funny thing is that I had a Century G3 that ran flawlessly that I sold to buy the PTR91 because I thought the PTR would be an improvement.

I also have a DSA FAL STG58, so I have been wondering if I needed the alternate platform in the same caliber.

 

[Retro]

The "new" rifles are test-fried by factory anyway... Your gun is out of warranty since you have had it for 2 years. You can fire commerical rounds through it first to make sure that it would function. Then you can try your luck with South African to see if it cycles.. You may be lucky... (there are some AW serial that would function with SA). I don't have a problem with the rifle not functioning with South African surplus... however, I do have beef with the rifle not functioning with NATO-stamped European surplus, since the rifle was meant to cycle those properly.

 

[.45&TKD]

Thanks Retro!

 

[Slamfire]

The HK91/G3 rifle is a delayed blowback rifle. It uses flutes to float the upper 2/3rds of the case from the chamber walls. Pressurized gas from the barrel flow down these flutes and floats the upper part of the case off the chamber walls. This is to reduce breech friction and is absolutely required for function. Breech friction will stop any and all semi automatic mechanisms.

Ammunition with tar sealant around the bullet will clog those flutes. The tar is vaporized and then condenses in the flutes.

It is absolutely unacceptable for the company to claim that PTR91 will not function with certain NATO surplus ammo, since the company also claims that PTR91 is made to the exact specifications of HK91, and if so, PTR91 should cycle on all surplus NATO rounds since G3 was designed for those ammos.

My PTR91 functions perfectly with Australian ball. My surplus Australian ball does not use a tar sealant.

I would believe that the Germans expected their troops to use their ammo. There may be lots of FAL ammo they made, that had tar, maybe it was underpowered for the HK91. But still, I expect they would know which German ammo to issue to their troops. Considering the Germans are a Sovereign country and can do what they darn well please, the only force that could make them build a rifle that uses everyone else’s ammunition is a higher power than exists on this earth.

I don’t subscribe to this Nato standard library, so I cannot examine the latest Nato spec on ammunition. It would be interesting to see just what is standardized and what is not.

http://www.namsa.nato.int/ammo/nadb_e.htm

Imagine if BMW posts out a warning: "BMW 3, 5, and 7 series can only run on Shell gasoline, and if you run other lesser gas brands such as Chevron, the inferior quality gasoline will screw up your in-line 6 engine, and all repair cost will not be covered by the factory warranty and you must pay for it." This is nothing short of being ludicrous.

Your expectations for standardization is very high, and unrealistic. Pictured below is a 2.8 MW MTU (German) engine alternator. Expect to pay between $100 K and $200 K for this item.

If you were to crack the English version of the MTU engine manual, you will find that there is a list of approved oils, coolants, filters, etc for this engine. If you use something other than their approved list of fuels, lubricants and parts, they won’t warrant their engine. No matter how you rant and rave.

If you really, really want to use Dick’s Magical Oil in the crankcase, they do have a procedure for you to qualify that oil. At your expense of course. And if Dick’s oil passes that $100K test, they will warrant the engine.

http://www.mtu.de/en/

 

[bk1]

I encourage everyone to try surplus in their PTR91 if they have one. Then, contact the company and don't accept their "it's the ammo, not us" excuse. Again, I stayed away from the ammo on their list and still am having problems.

At least it functions properly on federal .308 I can get from Walmart. Still, it's not at the same price point as surplus ammo.

I just can't believe I never came across this issue 6 months ago when I was doing my research on which .308 rifle to get. I purchased a TON of mags, scope, parts etc and now have a rifle I don't feel I can rely on.

 

[LeibstandarteAdH]

i have had VERY good luck with the orriginal HK G3 barrels, they have 16 flutes. I dont know how many flutes the PTR-91 bull barrels that they use have, but i know they stated that they reduced the number and depth of the flutes to tone down the action and make the gun more accurate ect... im pretty sure this is the cause of the problems with such ammo, as my 1981 produced HK barrel in my Hesse recievored parts gun shoots whatever all day long, including SA from 1981, Wolf & Barnual steel cased stuff, and the earlier indian from the 70's. It gets filthy but the flutes never clog bad enough to cause any noticible problem.

i would personally buy a PTR-91, and pull and replace the barrel and front tripple frame with a military profile/spec one. Mossberg made up some 16 flute ones that are not chrome lined, there are HK barrels to be had, along with FNP, and tons of real HK barrels in crappy century G3 clones that you could replace with the american made one and not loose any of the guns value on.

 

[Joe Demko]

Had and sold a PTR. It was extremely accurate and reliable with Federal Match Grade ammo. Never fired anything else from it, so I can't comment on that. Recoil was notably unpleasant from that gun. It's the reason I sold it off.
I recently picked up a PSL. It's a much softer recoiling piece. I enjoy shooting it far more than I did the PTR. Accuracy with surplus ammo is good.
Comparing the two straight from the box, the PSL is way cooler and more fun. It also works fine with cheap surplus ammo, which it seems the PTR won't do.

 

[FMJMIKE]

PSL-54C.............Just bought my second one..............

 

[Slvr Surfr]

This is their list according to their site,,,

# South African
# Winchester white boxes marked 7.62,
# Venezuela Cavim
# Austrian (Hirtenberger)
# Some lots of German
# British (under powered) will not cycle action
# Indian (Over powered)

I can understand some of the ammo on the list, but I am amused that they have an issue with WWB ammo. It is after all commercial ammunition.

Good thing I got the FAL!

 

[Retro]

German-designed rifle has problems with German NATO-stamped ammo... Irony in itself...

 

[jpwilly]

I had a PSL but the honeymood didn't last. Others on the other hand seem to really love theirs.

 

[ccsniper]

I just ordered a PSL the other day because I stock 7.62x54R. But since you stock .308 I would say get one of these so you don't have to restock on ammo

http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=139977728

Yet it seems you have already made up your mind. there are no 20 round mags at the moment, but I am betting someone will come out with one eventually and it probably won't work.

 

[JHansenAK47]

This is their list according to their site,,,

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

# South African
# Winchester white boxes marked 7.62,
# Venezuela Cavim
# Austrian (Hirtenberger)
# Some lots of German
# British (under powered) will not cycle action
# Indian (Over powered)

I can understand some of the ammo on the list, but I am amused that they have an issue with WWB ammo. It is after all commercial ammunition.

Good thing I got the FAL!

I have shot south african, winchester, venezuela cavim and british as well as some others with no problems. I do have an older PTR though. I bought mine before they had the plastic lowers. I wouldn't be suprised if the new rifles had problems they were running out of surplus parts. Probably had to manufacture more of the parts themselves.