Pulled plated bullets after heavy roll crimp: NO SIZE CHANGE!

[Macchina]

I started a thread a bit back about expansion of Xtreme HP bullets. The bullets were running pretty slow and many people asked about the heavy crimp resizing the bullets. The heavy crimp is required for H110 loads. I loaded up some of these Xtreme bullets and put an intense crimp on them. The crimp definitely deforms the bullets, but only at the cannelure. No lead shows through the coating. The entire bearing surface of the bullet remains exactly .357", the same measurement as a new Xtreme bullet.

I took some pictures of the bullets, they all measure .357" after pulling.

The two left bullets are roll crimped and pulled, third from the left is taper crimped and pulled, far right is an unloaded bullet:


So, what gives? I thought an intense crimp was supposed to resize plated bullets? What is your opinion, should this heavy crimp be good to go?

 

[tightgroup tiger]

First off what kind of crimping die are you using? Your left two rounds in the top picture are definitely crimped to heavily no matter what kind of die your using. The two bullets you pulled from the crimped plated rounds are really deformed from the crimp. Factory crimp dies are what usually swedge a bullet down to where it won't stay tight in the case.

I've never seen a .357mag round that looked like that from any crimp die.

Your lucky you not leaving the plating stuck in your barrel for the next bullet to hit and cause an obstruction. Even when I taper crimp my .357s which is seldom, they don't look close to what I'm seeing in your pictures.

Again, what kind of crimp die are you using?

 

[Macchina]

I am using a Lee Factory Crimp Die.
Interesting observation: with any jacketed bullet, the carbide ring will size the case as it leaves the die, however with these plated bullets, the case does not even touch the carbide ring (it stays undersized).

 

[Macchina]

Your left two rounds in the top picture are definitely crimped to heavily no matter what kind of die your using.

I do put a HEAVY crimp on these, it's a very heavy load of H110 and I shoot them from a 17 ounce gun from time to time and don't want bullet pull...
If I am crimping these too heavily, please let me know. I have shot about 1000 rounds crimped like this and my brass is past 10 cycles so I know it's not harming anything component-wise. I started crimping like this per the instructions that come with the die...

 

[rcmodel]

Your crimp is WAY TOO HEAVY!

O.K.?

rc

 

[Macchina]

Well... If RC says it: I'm going to back off

Back to the original question: Even with this super-heavy-duty-roid-raged-HeMan-crimp the bullet did not size as it was pulled. I have read that plated bullets are supposed to resize with an average-man's crimps...

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I'm not going to tell you your doing it wrong if it is obviously working for you. It just looks excessive to me. I confess I don't use a factory crimp die and that's why I was asking.

I have to assume your using thick plated bullet if your driving them hard with 110. Do you get any split necks from crimping them that hard? I have to admit they look kind of cool.

 

[Havok7416]

Yeah, I agree with RC, although it is a nice proof of concept on the plated bullets. .357 isn't supposed to be a bottleneck cartridge!

Try the crimp on a regular plated bullet with no cannelure (but don't shoot it!). I think you will find that it may cut into the plating, which is where the usual warning comes from.

 

[Macchina]

But what harm is there in such a heavy crimp? As I said before it does not seem to affect my brass life one bit...
P.S.: the light was behind (toward the rims) of the cartridges in the picture above. I just noticed that these look a bit more severe than they actually are. They are heavy crimps, but the bullets don't actually end in the sharp edged-drop that the shadows/lighting makes them appear to.

 

[Havok7416]

It affects your case pressure for one. The heavier the crimp, the longer the delay in shoving the bullet into the barrel, which causes a pressure jump.

 

[Macchina]

It affects your case pressure for one. The heavier the crimp, the longer the delay in shoving the bullet into the barrel, which causes a pressure jump.

Well, cases fall free and primers are hardly starting to to flatten at the edges (absolutely no cratering ever). This is with a full charge of H110 too.

These are my primers from this load with this type of crimp:

 

[tightgroup tiger]

I do think they are crimp to deeply for plated bullets of any kind from the looks of the first two bullets. Most of the bullets ability to stay in place is from the neck tension of the case that from properly sized cases and the minimum of flare (just enough to get the bullet to sit on top and stick there). I have considered a factory crimp die but I have never had a setback problem so I never spent the money on one. I have reloading friend that swear by them but their loaded cases don't look anything like yours. I use a roll crimp but that doesn't mean anything.

Maybe someone that is well versed with factory crimp dies can jump in and tell you what the loaded round is supposed to look like.

I do know, only from reading, that you are not supposed to resize the bullet with the die because the case will spring back somewhat and the bullet won't so the bullet will become loose in the case even though you just crimped it in.

We have a lot of member that complain about being able to spin the bullet in the case after crimping with a FCD because of this.

If it is deforming the bullet it's to much crimp. A fine line is acceptable but that's just to much.

 

[Macchina]

We have a lot of member that complain about being able to spin the bullet in the case after crimping with a FCD because of this.

There is no spinning one of my crimped bullets
Maybe EVERYONE ELSE is doing it wrong because they have problems and I don't. JK, but there had to be that first guy to think the world was round...

 

[tightgroup tiger]

Well, first off to that cannulure is a fake cannular. It's cut into the bullet not a .022" thick alloy jacket. That kind of bullet just can't take that kind of pressure. Aren't you finding little copper balls stuck in the forcing cone when you clean your gun? if you are it is a sign you are running your plated bullets way to hot. The plating is melting and sticking to your forcing cone. I've done this myself from loading plated bullets to hot in my .357s.

Copper plating is much softer than a jacket is and much weaker. Plated bullet have a soft lead bullet under the plating that won't take a heavy crimp or super fast velocity.
I know Xtreme bullets say their thick plated bullets are good for 1450fps but you haven't said yet they are thick plate or what weight they are.

Even if you aren't showing pressure signs in your cases you are still loading the plated bullets to hot and crimping them that heavy will get you in the end.

It's a matter of time.

 

[Macchina]

Xtreme says any of their HP bullets can be loaded to 1500 FPS, regardless of plating thickness. I understand that even Xtreme recommends a light taper crimp. The whole point of this thread is to state that: EVEN WITH THIS SUPER HEAVY CRIMP, THE PLATED BULLET WAS NOT RESIZED AND THE PLATING WAS NOT COMPROMISED EVEN WITH HEAVY DEFORMATION.

H110 requires a heavy crimp, I was experimenting with using this heavy crimp (that works well on my jacketed XTPs) on plated bullets. I am just trying to post my findings that the bullet was not resized. I get the point that my crimp is heavier than others, but I still haven't SEEN any evidence that there is a negative side to having a heavier than normal crimp. If it increases pressure, then I should see increased pressure signs (never once has this brass/load been sticky in extraction across 3 different guns). If it decreases brass life then my brass should not have lasted over 10 cycles. If it resizes plated bullets, then these pulled bullets should be undersized.

I will be moving forward from here with a lighter crimp for the sake of safety, even if I don't see the beginning signs of pressure.

 

[Drail]

While you may not be altering the bullet's dia. crimping that heavily (why would they) I can pretty much assure you that your cases will have a short life after meeting your crimp die. Bullet setback can be controlled much easier by ensuring you have sufficient case neck tension than by attempting to hold the bullets in place with a heavy crimp. Measure your bullet dia. - measure the expander plug of your expanding die. The expander plug needs to be 3 to 5 thous. smaller than the bullet dia. or the case mouth will allow the bullets to move (heavily crimped or not). If your expander plug is oversized turn it down in a drill or drill press. If you seat a bullet with no crimp yet applied you should be able to press the round against the edge of your bench HARD and not see any movement. If it does you need more case neck tension.

 

[Macchina]

While you may not be altering the bullet's dia. crimping that heavily (why would they) I can pretty much assure you that your cases will have a short life after meeting your crimp die.

Currently on their 11th or 12th loading...

 

[Ccctennis]

Crimp

I'm not saying its wrong but I have never seen a crimp like that before. Revolvers can take a beating but eventually the over pressure will come back to bite you. That is either way too heavy of a crimp or an improper crimp. If it works that is fine but I think the vets on here aren't trying to critize just protect you.

 

[gamestalker]

I load a lot with h110, and I also use a very stout roll crimp. Always have since the beginning, and following an experience with bullets jumping from the case mouths with a pretty decent crimp, but less than a maximum crimp.

As for your roll crimp, you are crimping too far above the bottom edge of the canelure, which is why the case mouth is mashed flat across, and into the bottom of the canelure. Decrease your oal until the case mouth is slightly digging into the canelure, probably some where around a 60 or 70 degree angle. Two 90 degree angles isn't a proper roll crimp, and you'll end up with split mouths fairly quickly, as well.

I've deformed XTP's before using too much roll crimp, but Gold Dots are much harder it seems, case walls collapse before the bullet gets deformed, might be similar with some plated bullets?

GS

 

[hartcreek]

Way to much crimp....you should not have that second shoulder in the cannalure. Yes I wont effect bullet diameter but it sure will effect case life and give to high a pressure. Your primers are already showing that you are running pretty high pressure.

I would be willing to bet that if you back off on the crimp your primers will not be flattened as much. You have to remember that you wear straight wall cases in two places the mouths and the primer pockets.

 

[JRWhit]

You would be better served using a roll crimp. The Lee factory die utilizes a taper crimp better suited for lower pressure bullets without a connelure. Bullets of higher pressure with connelure should have a roll crimp. If you have the Lee factory die then I assume that you have the 4 die set. Proper adjustment of the seating die will roll crimp your rounds.
I only explain this because the title of your thread is calling those a roll crimp and they are not, they are taper crimped.
That's not to say that you won't get many uses out of the brass with your crimp, but you could get just as good a hold on the bullet and work the brass less with a roll crimp, and that equals more brass uses.

 

[Walkalong]

The whole point of this thread is to state that: EVEN WITH THIS SUPER HEAVY CRIMP, THE PLATED BULLET WAS NOT RESIZED AND THE PLATING WAS NOT COMPROMISED EVEN WITH HEAVY DEFORMATION.

And it is impressive that they do.

 

[floydster]

Anyone ever hear of bullet tension??

 

[USSR]

Anyone ever hear of bullet tension??

+1. A crimp's primary purpose in a revolver is to prevent bullet movement under recoil of the cartridges in the other 5 chambers. A crimp is not a substitute for a lack of neck tension.

Don

 

[hartcreek]

That crimp IS NOT a taper crimp. That is what happens when you roll crimp way to excessively you can actually put a flat in the cannalure. 25 years ago I had a few crimps that looked like that till I backed off.

As for your powder charge you are using H110 which is the same as 296 and it does not require what you are doing.

I use 296 for .44 magnums and I have loadings of 28 grains with a 200 grain hornady XTP and 24.7 grains with 240 grain bullets and a good roll crimp is all I need to prevent set back. I have even used 22 grains of 296 with a 200 grain bullet in my Smith 624 with a good roll crimp and there was NO set back.

My loads clearly exceed yours and no I would not advise any one using that .44 Special load as with the wrong weapon you be missing fingers.