Pump and lever actions
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Why?
No demand. If there's a demand, someone will fill it. If there's not, there's no incentive to do so.
No demand. If there's a demand, someone will fill it. If there's not, there's no incentive to do so.
Brian Williams
Moderator Emeritus
There are more pump rifles than there are lever shotguns.
Take a look at the lever shotguns out there they are huge in the larger gauges and just like most other lever guns in 410. Winchester had the 9410, it was a 1894 chambered in 410.
Remington has had a number of pump rifles, the 14, 141, the 741. Winchester had the 62 I think in 22lr.
Take a look at the lever shotguns out there they are huge in the larger gauges and just like most other lever guns in 410. Winchester had the 9410, it was a 1894 chambered in 410.
Remington has had a number of pump rifles, the 14, 141, the 741. Winchester had the 62 I think in 22lr.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Pump
There are a good many pump-action rifles around...mostly in .22 rimfire caliber...but there are some others. They never caught on very well in the other calibers. Many years ago, there were...but they fell by the wayside.
No demand. There were also lever-action shotguns. Not a very good design, I'm afraid. The pump was faster and less clumsy...and much handier. The pump prevailed, and the lever-action scattergun went the way of the dinosaur. A recent .410 levergun was introduced...and demand was evidently
limited, so they're rarely seen. I imagine that once existing stocks are gone, there will probably be no more. Collectors...get'em while they're available.
The market drives it. If there's a demand, it will be supplied. If it's supplied, and the response is a collective yawn...it's dropped. As to why they aren't more or less popular...That's pretty much something that you'll have to ask
of individual shooters. Some like'em, and some don't. When the "Do-Likes" outnumber the "Don't-Likes" the arm will be produced in vast numbers. If it's the other way around...they're simply not. The answer may well lie in the axiom that everything that is made presumably has a purpose. If that purpose can't be better accomplished with somehing else...why bother?
The lever-action rifles and pump shotguns have been serving us well for over a hundred years, and there are vast inventories in homes all over the country.
If a lever-action shotgun or pump-action rifle offers zero advantages over the traditional weapons...Why run out and buy one simply because it's different?
There are a good many pump-action rifles around...mostly in .22 rimfire caliber...but there are some others. They never caught on very well in the other calibers. Many years ago, there were...but they fell by the wayside.
No demand. There were also lever-action shotguns. Not a very good design, I'm afraid. The pump was faster and less clumsy...and much handier. The pump prevailed, and the lever-action scattergun went the way of the dinosaur. A recent .410 levergun was introduced...and demand was evidently
limited, so they're rarely seen. I imagine that once existing stocks are gone, there will probably be no more. Collectors...get'em while they're available.
The market drives it. If there's a demand, it will be supplied. If it's supplied, and the response is a collective yawn...it's dropped. As to why they aren't more or less popular...That's pretty much something that you'll have to ask
of individual shooters. Some like'em, and some don't. When the "Do-Likes" outnumber the "Don't-Likes" the arm will be produced in vast numbers. If it's the other way around...they're simply not. The answer may well lie in the axiom that everything that is made presumably has a purpose. If that purpose can't be better accomplished with somehing else...why bother?
The lever-action rifles and pump shotguns have been serving us well for over a hundred years, and there are vast inventories in homes all over the country.
If a lever-action shotgun or pump-action rifle offers zero advantages over the traditional weapons...Why run out and buy one simply because it's different?
MikeJackmin
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I can understand the lack of consumer interest in large-bore lever action shotguns - they are just to big and ungainly, and shotguns are supposed to be graceful.
I agree that the lack of interest in pump rifles is a mystery. They do not require the shooter to move his hand away from the trigger and regrip the stock, as bolt and lever guns do, and they are certainly no slower to operate. I've always wanted a .357 Timberwolf myself.
I agree that the lack of interest in pump rifles is a mystery. They do not require the shooter to move his hand away from the trigger and regrip the stock, as bolt and lever guns do, and they are certainly no slower to operate. I've always wanted a .357 Timberwolf myself.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Pumped
Quote:
>I agree that the lack of interest in pump rifles is a mystery.<
***********
Me either. I always felt that one of the old pump rifles in .35 Remington caliber would be a neat, handy close-range brush rifle if the barrel were trimmed to a reasonable length of say...18 inches. I guess there are just so many leverguns in that caliber and in .30-30 that have been walkin' the walk for so long...that there's just no reason for the Whitetail hunters to rush out and buy another rifle that fires the same round, strikes the same blow, and basically fills the same role.
Quote:
>I agree that the lack of interest in pump rifles is a mystery.<
***********
Me either. I always felt that one of the old pump rifles in .35 Remington caliber would be a neat, handy close-range brush rifle if the barrel were trimmed to a reasonable length of say...18 inches. I guess there are just so many leverguns in that caliber and in .30-30 that have been walkin' the walk for so long...that there's just no reason for the Whitetail hunters to rush out and buy another rifle that fires the same round, strikes the same blow, and basically fills the same role.
Can'thavenuthingood
Member
Might be with a pump rifle you have to move your left hand away from its stationary or brace point. In a prone or hiding position it becomes a bit more difficult as opposed to a lever action rifle.
Pump shotguns are typically used standing up and you have the room to move your left side freely.
Vick
Pump shotguns are typically used standing up and you have the room to move your left side freely.
Vick
Stretchman
member
Could be physics. Shotty = big, rifle = small.
mainmech48
Member
Most shotguns are used primarily as hunting weapons. The game is nearly always moving, usually as fast as it can, and quite often airborne. The motion required to operate a pump doesn't disturb the tracking of and pointing at such targets nearly as much as does that for a lever action. While the same does hold true for rifles, it has become less relevant in the field as the ways that folks usually hunted deer and small game changed.
Sadly, relatively few folks that I know still routinely use a rifle for taking rabbits or squirrels anymore. The countryside around here is generally pretty 'flat' and open and it has become much more 'developed', for one thing. Many of those who pursue the tasty tree rat seem to lack the time or the patience to stalk them and wait until they're stationary to take their shot. The fact that for many years now the only legal arm for deer hunting during the regular 'Firearms' season has been a shotgun might have something to do with it, too, but that's just a personal speculation.
The main reasons that the Marlin and Winchester LA .410s weren't exactly stellar sellers, IMHO, are: that they were more expensive compared to most other .410 repeaters, they wouldn't cycle 3" cartridges, and they offered no significant practical advantages afield for the extra cash.
Up until relatively recent times, most all LA and pump rifles were exclusively chambered for what are now considered to be low-to-medium powered cartridges. As the paradigm for what constituted 'high' power in a hunting cartridge shifted towards the .30-06 after WWI, and more Americans became familiar with the BA rifle's capabilities, tastes began to change. For many years, the .30-30 and cartridges of similar ballistics were still considered to be perfectly adequate, if not ideal, for deer and similar game and the continued to be popular. After WWII, when surplus BAs in more potent chamberings became available at rock-bottom prices and advances in the manufacture of optical sights made scopes tougher, clearer, and much less expensive, the ranges at which game could taken humanely and reliably started to change the definiton of what the average 'deer rifle' should be radically.
There were pumps like the Remington 76, LAs like the Winchester 88, Savage 99, and Sako Finnwolf, semi-autos like the Browning BAR and Remington 74 introduced to compete with the BAs on their own terms, and some of them are still around. But they were never perceived by the largest portion of the market as having comparable potential for precision accuracy to a BA, or enough other practical advantages to justify their sometimes considerable extra cost.
As a southpaw, I gravitated to pumps and levers early, as they were the only repeaters that I could get that were both available and affordable. My favorite small game/woods-bumming carbine is an IMI Timberwolf .357 and I wouldn't trade it for diamonds. I hunt deer with a Savage 99F, a Marlin 336 in .35 remington, and a Marlin 1895G in .45-70, as well as my LH Remington 870. My nephews' favorite plinkers when I take them to the club are my Rossi M62s and little M92 'Trapper' .357. Like tuner said, why should I buy a BA just because it's different?
Sadly, relatively few folks that I know still routinely use a rifle for taking rabbits or squirrels anymore. The countryside around here is generally pretty 'flat' and open and it has become much more 'developed', for one thing. Many of those who pursue the tasty tree rat seem to lack the time or the patience to stalk them and wait until they're stationary to take their shot. The fact that for many years now the only legal arm for deer hunting during the regular 'Firearms' season has been a shotgun might have something to do with it, too, but that's just a personal speculation.
The main reasons that the Marlin and Winchester LA .410s weren't exactly stellar sellers, IMHO, are: that they were more expensive compared to most other .410 repeaters, they wouldn't cycle 3" cartridges, and they offered no significant practical advantages afield for the extra cash.
Up until relatively recent times, most all LA and pump rifles were exclusively chambered for what are now considered to be low-to-medium powered cartridges. As the paradigm for what constituted 'high' power in a hunting cartridge shifted towards the .30-06 after WWI, and more Americans became familiar with the BA rifle's capabilities, tastes began to change. For many years, the .30-30 and cartridges of similar ballistics were still considered to be perfectly adequate, if not ideal, for deer and similar game and the continued to be popular. After WWII, when surplus BAs in more potent chamberings became available at rock-bottom prices and advances in the manufacture of optical sights made scopes tougher, clearer, and much less expensive, the ranges at which game could taken humanely and reliably started to change the definiton of what the average 'deer rifle' should be radically.
There were pumps like the Remington 76, LAs like the Winchester 88, Savage 99, and Sako Finnwolf, semi-autos like the Browning BAR and Remington 74 introduced to compete with the BAs on their own terms, and some of them are still around. But they were never perceived by the largest portion of the market as having comparable potential for precision accuracy to a BA, or enough other practical advantages to justify their sometimes considerable extra cost.
As a southpaw, I gravitated to pumps and levers early, as they were the only repeaters that I could get that were both available and affordable. My favorite small game/woods-bumming carbine is an IMI Timberwolf .357 and I wouldn't trade it for diamonds. I hunt deer with a Savage 99F, a Marlin 336 in .35 remington, and a Marlin 1895G in .45-70, as well as my LH Remington 870. My nephews' favorite plinkers when I take them to the club are my Rossi M62s and little M92 'Trapper' .357. Like tuner said, why should I buy a BA just because it's different?
Essex County
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I imagine so many pump shotguns are around because they are inexpensive to build. Not so with pump centerfires. The Remington Gamemaster did a fine job of filling this niche for many years. Left handed bolt rifles used to be scacer than hen's teeth, but now are common. If there was a pent up demand for pump rifles more companies would jump in and fill the void. Essex
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Neither seem to be as accurate as a bolt action, which seems to be king as far as accuracy goes. Haven't really noticed a practical difference in accuracy between my pump and lever.
I love all three actions and have .30 calibers in each. A .30-30 lever gun (Marlin 336RC), a .30-06 pump (Remington 760), and a .308 bolt (several, actually). Each has its application, and I like 'em all just fine.
Don't really see the use of a lever-action shotgun, though ...
I love all three actions and have .30 calibers in each. A .30-30 lever gun (Marlin 336RC), a .30-06 pump (Remington 760), and a .308 bolt (several, actually). Each has its application, and I like 'em all just fine.
Don't really see the use of a lever-action shotgun, though ...
Outlaw Man
Member
Haven't you seen Terminator 2?!?!Legionnaire said:
mustanger98
Member
There were two models of lever action shotgun. IIRC, one of 'em was 1887. Thinking of those in movies, the "Shorty" character in "Monty Walsh" had one with the stock shortened and wrapped in sheepskin. Looked like the barrel had been shortened some too. Looked like a cool idea to me as far as usability. Real life... I've seen several at Mule Camp back when it was still in Gainesville. They seem rather hard to find in good using shape.
ArfinGreebly
Moderator Emeritus
Remington 7615
Remington has a new pump rifle out, the 7615, in .223 Rem, which accepts standard AR-15 mags.
(Download their catalog for better pictures.)
Remington has a new pump rifle out, the 7615, in .223 Rem, which accepts standard AR-15 mags.
Their 7615 Ranch Carbine:
Something in a nice black:
And a tactically correct version:
Something in a nice black:
And a tactically correct version:
(Download their catalog for better pictures.)
TallPine
Member
I have a friend who has a very old lever action shotgun. It must have been a "stagecoach gun" because the barrel is quite short. Most of the internals are missing, but the lever is connected to something like a rolling block.
It's pretty rusted so I didn't see any markings on it.
It's pretty rusted so I didn't see any markings on it.
DC3-CVN-72
Member
I'm not a hunter, I don't know so I'll ask. I think here in ILL. you can't hunt deer with a bolt action rifle but I think a bolt action Shotgun or any Shotgun is ok. I don't think a pump action rifle would be legal, but maby in another state. That would be a good reason to own one I think. Did that make sence?
Legionnaire
Contributing Member
Yeah, but I still don't see the purpose ...
back at ya!Geronimo45
Member
"Yeah, but I still don't see the purpose ..."
Okay, "The Mummy Returns." Very good anti-mummy ordnance found in lever-action shotguns.
Okay, "The Mummy Returns." Very good anti-mummy ordnance found in lever-action shotguns.
oneshooter
Member
Lever shotguns
The 1887 Winchester is a sleek, modern looking lever shotgun. Available in 12 and 10 ga. The 1901 10ga was proofed for nitro powder.
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
The 1887 Winchester is a sleek, modern looking lever shotgun. Available in 12 and 10 ga. The 1901 10ga was proofed for nitro powder.
Oneshooter
Livin in Texas
Last edited:
ive got a remington gamemaster in 30-06. i read up on them and they were supposed to be on the most accurate rifles of the day since the bolt locked in the front or something. ill have to dig the article up again, i think made correctly any non semi auto rifle should be just as accurate as the next. none of the propellant gases are used to cycle the action, it all pushes the bullet. there shouldnt be any inherint inaccuracy.
Lever Action Shotguns never caught on because they make it more difficult to track a target as you are cycling the gun. Pump shotguns were (and are) so popular because they were cheaper than autos and aren't limited in what loads they cycle (as self compensating autos became available comparatively recently).
I think the pump rifle issue is more complex.
Pump .22s were extremely popular in the first half of the 20th century, but got killed off by the flood of inexpensive semis that started arriving in the 60's, like the Ruger 10/22. A big factor in this was that .22 Long Rifle ammo had become much more reliable. If you look at old semi-auto .22's like the Winchester 63, you will see that they specified specific brands of ammo (sometimes even stamped on the gun!) to ensure reliable functioning.
I think the centerfire pumps also got caught in the times. In the earlier part of the 20th century a Lever Action was the best selling rifle, and thus manufacturers would not produce a pump model that would compete with their own lever sales. Note that Remington, who did not produce a lever action, sold the Model 14 pump. Also Savage, whose Model 99 lever was chambered in hotter cartridges like the .300 Savage, made a pump chambered in the less intense chamberings like .30-30.
Pump actions were again left in the dust when bolt actions came into favor. This was largely because the bolt action could be chambered in a high intensity cartridge. The pumps retained their tube magazines (precluding the use of spitzer bullets) and remained in the older "lever action" calibers. Without the nolstalgia of levers, nor the practicality of bolts, the pumps faded into the background. The Remington 7600 is the sole pump centerfire in production, though it addresses many of the older weaknesses, being available in high powered chamberings and having a box magazine.
I think it should also be noted that outside of military derived rifles and quasi-military rifles (like the Mini-14), semi-automatic centerfires are lacking in commercial production. The only two currently produced (that I can recall off the top of my head) are the Remington 7400/7500 and Browning BAR mk.2.
I think the pump rifle issue is more complex.
Pump .22s were extremely popular in the first half of the 20th century, but got killed off by the flood of inexpensive semis that started arriving in the 60's, like the Ruger 10/22. A big factor in this was that .22 Long Rifle ammo had become much more reliable. If you look at old semi-auto .22's like the Winchester 63, you will see that they specified specific brands of ammo (sometimes even stamped on the gun!) to ensure reliable functioning.
I think the centerfire pumps also got caught in the times. In the earlier part of the 20th century a Lever Action was the best selling rifle, and thus manufacturers would not produce a pump model that would compete with their own lever sales. Note that Remington, who did not produce a lever action, sold the Model 14 pump. Also Savage, whose Model 99 lever was chambered in hotter cartridges like the .300 Savage, made a pump chambered in the less intense chamberings like .30-30.
Pump actions were again left in the dust when bolt actions came into favor. This was largely because the bolt action could be chambered in a high intensity cartridge. The pumps retained their tube magazines (precluding the use of spitzer bullets) and remained in the older "lever action" calibers. Without the nolstalgia of levers, nor the practicality of bolts, the pumps faded into the background. The Remington 7600 is the sole pump centerfire in production, though it addresses many of the older weaknesses, being available in high powered chamberings and having a box magazine.
I think it should also be noted that outside of military derived rifles and quasi-military rifles (like the Mini-14), semi-automatic centerfires are lacking in commercial production. The only two currently produced (that I can recall off the top of my head) are the Remington 7400/7500 and Browning BAR mk.2.
Vairochana
Member
I think the largest market in the world for lever action shotguns is in Australia, where we can't have pumps.
Same thing for leveraction and pump action rifles cos we can't have semi- autos
Same thing for leveraction and pump action rifles cos we can't have semi- autos
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