Punish Them, Punish Them All... Forever!

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I've often wondered just how far we will go before we reach critical mass and either swing around in the other direction or everything just explodes in our faces and we end up far worse than we are.
What I'm speaking of is the current state of the criminal justice system, those who run it and have a large part in its continued perpetuation upon our society.
Before you start to form an opinion read on and just think about all of what I'm saying, I'm not attempting to advocate a course of action or anything just attempting to stir up the ole mental process.

At present we are in a time where state legislatures churn out record amounts of laws each year, this past year Tennessee passed over 4,000 new laws. We seem to be enamored with labels...

Convicted Felon, Probationer, Parolee, Sex offender and the list goes on and on.

Once you are labeled with one of these, very seldom do you ever lose that label, some even come with a lifetime attachment and other criminal charges if you don't abide by the rules of wearing your Scarlett Letter.
It would almost seem that we are in a mode of criminalizing as many people as we can, for as many reasons as we can for the purpose of control and tracking.

Judges and Politicians are quick to toss out the term "rehabilitation" and "rehabilitated" when referring to the "correctional system" in this country and even its name rings of an oxymoron.

We are idiots to think this true, we are not rehabilitating anyone, in fact the evidence is there to show that jail more often than not makes non-violent criminals violent and violent criminals deadly.

These people are charged with a crime, convicted or plea out then either enter a prison system or into the world of probation where probation officers are all too quick to violate you for almost anything just to put you back into jail.
Fines are levied and payment is demanded or you go back to jail, usually for a probation violation which is itself could be a felony in most states.

They eventually get out, no one will give them a job or one with a livable wage and we wonder why they resort to burglary, theft or other crimes and end up back in jail.

Misdemeanors add up to felonies...

Shoplift in GA and TN for $250.00 or more and its a felony, shoplift 3 times in a seven day period no matter what the value of the items is and its a felony, bad checks can add up to a felony, even $1.00 check over a period of time.
Commit several moving violations within a 24 month period and accumulate 15 points on your license, they are suspended for 6 months for serious offenses or a safety violation.
Get caught driving on a suspended license and its off to jail and 12 more months of suspension. get caught 3 times in a 5 year period and your a habitual Violator, and that is a felony punishable by 5 years in prison.

While DUI is a serious crime, cops are all to quick to push the envelope with borderline cases, (most states have a limit of 0.08 grams BAC) such as a 0.081 or as I've seen many times 0.07 and the officer will go with a less safe case against the person.

The cycle continues...

Now we have the three strikes your out rule in effect, in some cases its applied to rather mundane crimes speaking of intensity only. Normally if you are on the receiving end of this law its 25 to life in prison for you.

We are seeing more and more people committing more and more serious crimes while out on probation or parole and the sex offenders, lately it seems that more and more kids are being kidnapped and killed by these predators than ever before.
I've often argued and continue to wonder if these people are so dangerous that we must make the register or we must keep them on probation to keep track of them then why in the hell did we let them out in the first place?

Guess my question is simple to ask but complicated to answer.

So what do we do?

 

[floridaboy]

Maybe politicians and lawyers could start using a little common sense when writing laws or prosecuting those who violate them.
That'll happen when pigs grow wings. In most cases, to paraphrase the fellow in the Dickens novel," The law is an ass, Sir!"

 

[MudCamper]

So what do we do?

End the war on drugs. Legalize them all, regulate them like alcohol. Our prisons and jails would lose 70% of their current polulation, making more room for the violent criminals to stay longer (for life preferably). And the revenue source for the gangs would be gone.

 

[Beatnik]

And?

This is the way things are.
Nobody can go a full day without breaking the law somehow.
The answer, of course, isn't to get rid of stupid laws, it's to make stupid laws have serious consequences.
Of course, nobody stops to consider that doing so makes other crimes with serious consequences less meaningful.

Why would you want to carry a gun to stop rapists? Rape isn't that serious... hell, it's the same as five speeding tickets in a year.

Personally, I can't help but think I made a poor career choice. I should have gone with one of the careers in which it's ok to ignore the stupid laws.

This is one reason why we need to stop fooling around with voting for people who we think can actually win. Corruption is corruption. As long as we're voting for bread & circuses, this is going to happen.

 

[jeep-2]

Just roll with the flow, our politions have made a sewer out of this country and now there is no fixing it.. They have spent yrs passing laws and telling us what is best for us and we stood by and let it happen, now it's too late. Wait til this amnesty bill is passed, we;ll have another 15 mil with more rights then us that are born here.. For us it has just become a police state...JMHO

 

[floridaboy]

Just try suggesting to most folks that we end the "war on drugs". They'll look at you like you're an imbecil. Even though most folks under about 65 or so have at least tried smoking pot. Or suggest that maybe we should legalise prostitution. They'll think you're a moral degenerate at best. How about legalizing gambling? Without the state controlling it through lotteries or casino's. They'll think of the Mafia and numbers runners. We've been conditioned to think of all these things, and plenty others as serious crimes.
Wish I had some answers, but I don't. I am seriously hoping to hear some ideas though.

Maybe we all start voting Libertarian?

 

[Caimlas]

Well, most of the serious offenses you listed used to come with an associated death penalty. There were less dangerous, repeat offenders in prisons, because those offenders were dead. As such, there was not such a 'dangerous' element in prison to encourage a criminal culture.

Also, the lesser offenses had stricter penalties.

The penalties of a life-long label are, I think, often over-extended, but only because these people (rapists, sex offenders, murderers, violent felons, etc.) shouldn't be out on the streets at all in the first place. I'll grant you that there are many asinine things which shouldn't be felony charges and now are; I suspect this is because the punishments are not sufficient for a lesser charge, so they must be classified as a felony charge now in order to get any sort of corrective action from the internment. Unfortunately, combined with an increasingly violent felon population in prisons and the various other factors results in these charges being ineffectual.

Bringing back hard labor for prisoners would also be beneficial. Not only would it be a great deterent for committing crime (as opposed to cable TV and cards all day), but it could be used to help solve the problem of illegal workers. Put them to work in the fields where there are "jobs Americans won't do".

End the war on drugs.

That'd be a good, and fairly easy (in terms of changing the law - the institutional changes will be much more difficult), first step. It would have its consequences, of course: criminals which previously only sold dope on the streets would be likely to take on more agressive crimes to make up for lost revenue, even though some of them might find honest work. But it would indeed be a good first step, I think.

 

[Zundfolge]

Do I even need to point to my sig anymore?


The simple fact is that no politician can get away with ending all liberty in one fell swoop, so its done in pieces.

Just try suggesting to most folks that we end the "war on drugs". They'll look at you like you're an imbecil.

Because its pounded into your head at ever turn; the only reason someone would want to end the WOD is because they are a closet drug fiend that wants to live high 24/7/365 and/or wants to turn your precious little children into addicts.

The first attack on liberty was by turning the education of children over to the state ... then they made sure people are not capable of critical thought.

 

[floridaboy]

Just to try an idea out on ya'll.
Do you think most folks would support the idea that if you can grow it at home, and use it without chemical prosessing, it should be legal?
Wanna grow pot for your own use? Coca plants and chew the leaves? Poppies and smoke opium? Fine! But process those leaves into cocaine, or that opium into heroin and it's big trouble. Truth is, I don't have any idea what you would process pot into, so I had to leave that alone.
But something along those lines seems reasonable to me. And I quit smoking weed 20 years ago.

 

[Zundfolge]

Do you think most folks would support the idea that if you can grow it at home, and use it without chemical prosessing, it should be legal?

No, because people that support the WOD do so because drug use is evil, causes all forms of evil and if drugs are legal then significantly more people will become addicts.

So being able to grow it at home is actually worse than going to the store to buy it.

 

[exar]

Do you think most folks would support the idea that if you can grow it at home, and use it without chemical prosessing, it should be legal?

There is no such thing as chemically processed pot. When people refer to chemicals in pot they are talking about lacing it with other drugs(which is so rare because no dealer would do that, not cost effective, only users lace their stuff for the high). The other "chemicals" they ignorantly talk about are nothing more than liquid fertilizers(same ones in all of our food, that no one complains about). They say "Oh gee golly NO, you don't know what they put in that!". Yeah, I do know, the same freaking stuff thats in your tomatoe that you just ate. If it was anything else that could harm you, the plant would die.

 

[oobray]

Easy question, hard answer

Federalist you said it exactly right. I have spent four years now studying the CJ system, and there absolutely isn't any answers.
As for drug legalisation, I don't think that would work, but decriminalisation I think might. The difference is that legalisation would make drugs akin to candy, and decriminalisation would make it more like pharmecuticals.
There are so many things that have been criminalized it's amazing. Take drugs for example, that's not a CJ issue, that should be handled by people in the public health buisness. There are also many social programs/organizations that truly could help out our crime in this country.

Bringing back hard labor for prisoners would also be beneficial. Not only would it be a great deterent for committing crime (as opposed to cable TV and cards all day), but it could be used to help solve the problem of illegal workers. Put them to work in the fields where there are "jobs Americans won't do".

History has showed that when this was occuring, it was horrible, horrible and more horrible. And trust me, I thought that prison was nothing but "TV and cards all day" until I actually got to take a look at what goes on in prison. And trust me, it really is hell on earth.

The reason that the CJ system will never work is because it's created by people like us, to control people who are entirely different. Severe punishment would deter us from crime because we have been properly socialized as youngsters, and we have social bonds that make punishment a very unrational choice. However, for most growing up in extremely impeverished inner city America, it doesn't matter if the punishment for stealing a car was autmatic death sentence, they would still do it because they have nothing to lose.

 

[jeep-2]

They could legalise prostitution. gambling, pot, the only reason it's not legal is because big brother is not getting a piece of the action.

 

[obxned]

If there is another major batch of gun laws after the next election, there could be unexpected consequence!

 

[Duach Laidir]

Down here in Australia, one State,the Northern Territory, brought in a "3 strikes and you're out" law. It was overturned by our Federal Government when an Aboriginal woman was jailed because for her third offence of stealing a can of soft drink.
Offenders who had been committing real crimes, but on their first or second strike ,were getting lesser punishment.

 

[ceetee]

I don't have any idea what you would process pot into, so I had to leave that alone.

Brownies...




Personally, I don't think legalization (or "decriminalization", if you will) will catch on anytime soon. If there was a referendum on the ballots of all states regarding so-called "medical marijuana", how many votes would it get? Shoot, Florida is pretty well into the 21st century, and there are still some places here where you can't sell booze past certain hours (and never on Sundays).

While the idea has merit, I think to have any chance of actually being attained, it would have to be attacked from another direction. Say, government-sponsored "drug treatment" programs where street drugs are prescribed and dispensed like methadone (for a nominal fee).

 

[Colt46]

Famous quote

Forgot who it is credited to though.

The greater the number of laws the more corrupt the state.

 

[thexrayboy]

Virtually all laws written by politicians exist for the same reason as gun control laws. They exist to contol citizens. Those who would violate the rights of others will ignore new laws as readily as the laws that have existed for centuries. All new legislature is introduced for the purpose of guiding, controlling and enslaving and fleecing the flock.

 

[lacoochee]

Because government exists to perpetuate itself, historically speaking there is almost no precedence in which a government decreases the number and complexity of it's laws. In fact, there is almost only one way this can happen, revolution. In the end great civilizations don't generally die from invasion, flood, plague or famine, they die under the weight of their thousands of incomprehensible laws.

In fact our Declaration of Independence makes that point, http://www.ushistory.org/declaration/document/, it's a shame we don't teach it anymore.

 

[piniongear]

What we need is one more law. The new law should be this:
If you intend to have children, then the new law states that you must raise them to be good citizens, to be honest and fair to all other humans who they shall come into contact with, throughout their entire lives. Failure to teach and raise your children correctly should result in the immediate death of that entire family. No appeals allowed.
I am an old guy who was a kid in the early fifties. I have watched the raising of children begin to fail when all of us grandparent types discovered drugs many years back. Our families failed and our children intensified that failure by out doing us with their own failure to raise their children. The drug problem became more serious than it was.
This is certainly not the case of every family in America, but it does affect a large number of people. If those people who now sit in jails had ever been given a chance by their parents to become respectable citizens, instead of what they have become, this country would be a very different world.
You know there is no reason any person should commit even a petty crime, had those people had been raised correctly. Most of the crime is done out of pure ignorance by very ignorant people. Rid the world of these Neanderthals.
Whoa. I feel better already!

 

[Zundfolge]

If you intend to have children, then the new law states that you must raise them to be good citizens, to be honest and fair to all other humans who they shall come into contact with, throughout their entire lives.

And there are MANY people that would interpret "good citizens" who are "honest and fair to all other humans" as Communist, earth worshiping, gun control supporters who don't use drugs, drink, or drive SUVs.

I am an old guy who was a kid in the early fifties. I have watched the raising of children begin to fail when all of us grandparent types discovered drugs many years back.

Drugs have been around a LONG time. More damage has been done to the family as a result of government meddling than drug use. Correlation does not equal cause, and I believe this rise in drug use you saw was a result of the embracing of collectivism and the rejection of traditional capitalist values, not its cause.

Most of the crime is done out of pure ignorance by very ignorant people. Rid the world of these Neanderthals.

A well armed populace without government trying to "civilize" them by outlawing self defense would rid us of these Neanderthals quite quickly.

 

[Sindawe]

Rid the world of these Neanderthals.

Hey now, from the fossil records, Neanderthals had a far longer run then we've had so far, and don't appear to have mucked things up like our kind has.

 

[Pilgrim]

What we need is one more law. The new law should be this:
If you intend to have children, then the new law states that you must raise them to be good citizens, to be honest and fair to all other humans who they shall come into contact with, throughout their entire lives. Failure to teach and raise your children correctly should result in the immediate death of that entire family. No appeals allowed.

Carried to its logical end, there will be only one family left alive after this law is passed.

Pilgrim

 

[piniongear]

Well, things here in Texas are looking up in my view. We now have had a concealed carry license that has been on the books for a number of years. I got mine 3 years ago.
Governor Perry signed a bill last week that let's us now shoot the criminal dead as he comes through our window or front door. Before that passed, we had to make some kind of retreat effort before taking action.
Yep, it's getting better in some ways, and it's past time for that to happen.

 

[TheFederalistWeasel]

I've been a cop for many years, maybe too long. I think it has jaded me towards my fellow man.

Seriously.

I've made so many arrests for so many different things I cannot even recall 1% of them without the aid of my arrest report.

I do my job, the tax payers do not foot the bill for my salary or even my equipment including my car, I stay proactive enough and make good stops/arrests which generate fine monies well in excess of what I cost the taxpayers, but even as I do this I see a system so broke that I just feel overwhelmed by it.

I don't feel sorry for most of the folks I arrest because I do pride myself in making good cases, not chasing after bull$hit.

But occasionally I am handed a warrant to serve and I'll feel sorry when I have to arrest a guy at his work place for a bench warrant -- contempt of court for failure to pay child support and I see he is in for $41,000.

Yes that was an actual warrant I served about 2.5 years ago.

This guy worked at Bluebird in GA, the warrant was handed to me by the Judge and I was told to go and get him right then and bring him back ASAP, which I did, then after his impromptu court appearance he was jailed for 180 days.

I felt sorry for him a bit...

It just seems as if we have made it our single ambition on this planet to criminalize everything.

It serves no purpose at all.

A lawyer once told me I needed to go to law school and join the trade, with my attitude I would make a good criminal defense lawyer, plus I know where all the bodies are buried so to speak in my area.

I told him that it would only frustrate me even more to become a lawyer, to stay a LEO at least I could strive and do my part to make good cases and arrest only when necessary.

He agreed.