SabbathWolf
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I got used to qualifying @ 25 meters with handguns, so that's the distance I generally use to judge accuracy by when shooting groups.
I do own a rifle or two as well.....lol
"Putting down the man gun"
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I do own a rifle or two as well.....lol
buck460XVR
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I don't need a Patrick Rogers or a Chris Costa to tell me what firearm/caliber I should use for SD/HD. I'll use what I'm proficient with and comfortable with. I'll let them do the same.
I don't believe either of them even attempted to do that, so you not wanting to be told works out well for everyone. Check the OP again; Costa "admitted" to carrying a 9mm. That's a far cry from trying to tell anyone the way it has to be for their SD, and the opposite end of the spectrum where this thread is trying to find a middle ground in discussing a concept.
Don't forget the other stuff
DAVID E,
Don't forget the other items when you carry an all steel 1911. I have to carry extra ammo, the handcuffs, the baton and the other equipment. Maybe you do not, it gets tiring to me.
Also, as to what method I shoot, it is the same isoceles that I was taught to use at the academy. It cannot be used for one handed shooting which I am required to do or for barricade shooting, as it moves me to far from the side wall that I have to shoot from.
I have found that recoil, whether it effects you or not, it does effect me. When I shoot my SIG 225 or 232 for 150 rounds, it is not tiring. When I shoot other guns, it is.
I have even found the .32ACP to be work when shooting a really small gun like the NAA Guardian. On the other hand, a slightly larger and heavier gun like the BERETTA Tomcat, shooting the same ammo is fine.
Shooting the BERETTA 82 in .32ACP (same gun as the BERETTA 85 Chettah is nearly recoil free for me.
So as far as I am concerned, felt recoil has a tolerance level before it becomes punishing and degrades my shooting. The .45ACP and .40 S&W reach that level long before a 9m.m. does for me.
Interestingly, I shot a heavy (40 ounce) 9m.m. pistol last week and it was not nearly as comfortable to shoot as my BERETTA 92, SIG 225 or WALTHER P99. It was much heavier than any of them and had a 15 round magazine, so the grip was long and wide.
Jim
DAVID E,
Don't forget the other items when you carry an all steel 1911. I have to carry extra ammo, the handcuffs, the baton and the other equipment. Maybe you do not, it gets tiring to me.
Also, as to what method I shoot, it is the same isoceles that I was taught to use at the academy. It cannot be used for one handed shooting which I am required to do or for barricade shooting, as it moves me to far from the side wall that I have to shoot from.
I have found that recoil, whether it effects you or not, it does effect me. When I shoot my SIG 225 or 232 for 150 rounds, it is not tiring. When I shoot other guns, it is.
I have even found the .32ACP to be work when shooting a really small gun like the NAA Guardian. On the other hand, a slightly larger and heavier gun like the BERETTA Tomcat, shooting the same ammo is fine.
Shooting the BERETTA 82 in .32ACP (same gun as the BERETTA 85 Chettah is nearly recoil free for me.
So as far as I am concerned, felt recoil has a tolerance level before it becomes punishing and degrades my shooting. The .45ACP and .40 S&W reach that level long before a 9m.m. does for me.
Interestingly, I shot a heavy (40 ounce) 9m.m. pistol last week and it was not nearly as comfortable to shoot as my BERETTA 92, SIG 225 or WALTHER P99. It was much heavier than any of them and had a 15 round magazine, so the grip was long and wide.
Jim
David E
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When I was a cop, I carried a S&W 645, four reloads, two pairs of cuffs, an SL-20, Orcutt nunchuks and a radio in addition to the Kevlar vest. Off duty, I just carried the 645, two reloads and a Spyderco.
I highly doubt it was the modern isosceles, which is light years ahead of the old PPC style isosceles taught by most academies.
All that said, one of my most fun centerfire handguns to shoot is a Colt Govt in 9x23 I won that I've fitted a Kart 9mm barrel to. Might need to break out my Hi Power, tho.
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Autolycus
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I prefer 9mm as it is more cost effective and I can carry a lot more ammo. I don't consider myself less manly or anything like that nor do I worry about it. I feel comfortable with 9mm and like the way it handles in my Glocks. Though I have been considering getting a .40 S&W as I have been able to find it in stock at the local shops which have been out of 9mm. If I do it will most likely be in an M&P or a Glock.
Either way the .45 ACP is a good round, it is just not for me. I prefer more ammo and feel that my 9mm is fine.
Either way the .45 ACP is a good round, it is just not for me. I prefer more ammo and feel that my 9mm is fine.
all about shot placement guys
we can argue caliber all day however in my personal experience shot placement is the most important aspect, not caliber. I was forced to defend myself against a knife weilding jerkoff and my three shots from a glock .40 to the upper hydraulics ended the encounter. It's simple.....take away the ability to pump oxygenated blood to the body through massive blood loss. Outside of a critical CNS (head or spinal cloumn) hit that is the only way to stop a fight permanently. As unfortunate as the incidnet was....it certainly made the point of shot placement.
we can argue caliber all day however in my personal experience shot placement is the most important aspect, not caliber. I was forced to defend myself against a knife weilding jerkoff and my three shots from a glock .40 to the upper hydraulics ended the encounter. It's simple.....take away the ability to pump oxygenated blood to the body through massive blood loss. Outside of a critical CNS (head or spinal cloumn) hit that is the only way to stop a fight permanently. As unfortunate as the incidnet was....it certainly made the point of shot placement.
charlie fox
Member
When I started carrying a gun for myself I reasoned that, since I didn't have backup or a radio, that more rounds made sense. Also, I could shoot the 9mm faster and more accurately than a larger caliber, so I chose the Glock 19. And since I have five grown children my manhood has remained firmly intact
Charlie Fox, do you ever write articles for Backwoodsman magazine?
I could swear one of the authors has that name.
I like 9mm well enough, and carry one often.
I prefer .44 or .45 caliber, and carry them, too.
Shot placement is the most important thing, as long as you have a round with enough penetration to reliably do the job.
However, with equal shot placement and penetration, the projectile that makes the largest hole is better, due to more tissue destruction and blood loss.
Unfortunately, I can't fit a Mossberg 590 into a CC holster.
You can't count on expansion, but you can count on a large diameter projectile never shrinking.
The main reason I bought an SR9 is because the SR45 didn't exist at the time.
Now that it does, I can't find one in the stores.
Not that I'm going to get rid of my SR9. It's easy to shoot and carry, and I just like it.
Honestly, I don't trust ANY pistol round to be an instantaneous fight stopper.
I do trust my .44 Spls, .45s, and .357s to do it more reliably than my 9s.
However, a man's got to know his limitations. We should all carry what we can carry and shoot comfortably, accurately, reliably.
Since Ruger doesn't make an SR12, I'll hang on to my SR9.
Funny, all the talk of .45 having such recoil. I've never noticed objectionable recoil from any .45 ACP auto or revolver.
I prefer the .45s recoil to that of the .40.
Of course, the SR9 is a very soft shooting pistol, but none of my .45s recoil enough to keep me from making accurate shots.
I could swear one of the authors has that name.
I like 9mm well enough, and carry one often.
I prefer .44 or .45 caliber, and carry them, too.
Shot placement is the most important thing, as long as you have a round with enough penetration to reliably do the job.
However, with equal shot placement and penetration, the projectile that makes the largest hole is better, due to more tissue destruction and blood loss.
Unfortunately, I can't fit a Mossberg 590 into a CC holster.
You can't count on expansion, but you can count on a large diameter projectile never shrinking.
The main reason I bought an SR9 is because the SR45 didn't exist at the time.
Now that it does, I can't find one in the stores.
Not that I'm going to get rid of my SR9. It's easy to shoot and carry, and I just like it.
Honestly, I don't trust ANY pistol round to be an instantaneous fight stopper.
I do trust my .44 Spls, .45s, and .357s to do it more reliably than my 9s.
However, a man's got to know his limitations. We should all carry what we can carry and shoot comfortably, accurately, reliably.
Since Ruger doesn't make an SR12, I'll hang on to my SR9.
Funny, all the talk of .45 having such recoil. I've never noticed objectionable recoil from any .45 ACP auto or revolver.
I prefer the .45s recoil to that of the .40.
Of course, the SR9 is a very soft shooting pistol, but none of my .45s recoil enough to keep me from making accurate shots.
"mangun?" "objectionable recoil?" HAH? If anyone wants to carry a little Euro**** 9mm "girlyman gun" I say go for it. I'll stick with my big heavy slow .41/.44/.45 bullets. I have seen 9mms fail to do the job. More than once. All seriousness aside, a 9mm is fine if you have a double stack magazine. And if you need a double stack magazine you must plan on missing a lot. (that's a joke, don't take anything I say seriously)
bobmilekjr
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I think it all boils down to what you are comfortable with, and shoot best. The least important to me is the quantity that can be put down range. It is a consideration for law enforcement, etc, but that doesn't include me. Probably the best reply i've heard for the average citizen came from a former writer (won't include his name because he can't defend himself now) who was retired from the border patrol. His entire career was spent with revolvers, and he was a driving force in developing a couple cartridges. When asked about the lack of rounds from a revolver, he replied that if he couldn't get out of a situation with 6 rounds, he was in a situation he should have been aware enough to avoid.
David E
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Following this advice, someone could choose a single shot TC Encore in .22 short because: they "feel" comfortable with it, can shoot it best and aren't concerned about the number of rounds that can be put downrange.
But it's still an ill-considered choice.
The gun chosen should possess, after reliabilty, a reasonably powered cartridge, capacity and size. Different people draw the line for each element at different places, but a little common sense goes a long way.
Let me suggest 3 shooting standards that would define the threshold of "good enough" to carry a given gun or caliber. (special note, these are not "gun fighting" standards, nor are they "gun fighting" training. These are drills most folks can do at the range to see if you and your gun choice can pass a bare minimum acceptable standard )
1) 5 shots, 5 yds, 5" plate, 5 seconds. This is a standard of sorts I've seen various places on the Internet to define the threshold. I think the time frame is overly generous, so I've added a concealment draw to the drill. Carry your gun in your normal way, hands at sides. At signal, draw and fire 5 shots on target in 5 seconds, 5 times in a row.
B) 5 yds, IPSC target, "C" zone or better, excluding head. Hands at sides, gun holstered and concealed, as is spare reload. At signal, draw and fire 4, reload, fire 4 more. Max time allowed is 10 seconds. Add 2 seconds for revolvers. Repeat 4 more times.
3) 5 yds, IPSC target, "C" zone or better excluding head. Gun holstered and concealed. At signal, draw and fire 2 shots in 3 seconds or less. Repeat 4 more times.
I emphasize these are bare minimum standards, nothing more. But they serve to establish a baseline to meet with a given carrygun. If you can't meet any of them, consider a different gun or caliber, as well as more practice.
Some introduce a 4th element that they place above the rest: convenience. If they can meet the suggested minimum standards with their "convenient" gun, then fine.
FireInCairo
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Sounds like some sage advice for those who've competed for 20 years, but not for someone who shoot recreationally and for personal protection.
David E
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Interesting. So you're saying that people who shoot competition will be required to have greater skill in a gunfight than someone who simply carries a gun for defense.
The drills suggested are intended to define a basic threshold of skill, regardless of shooter background.
If you want to argue the second drill is irrelevant because it includes a reload, fine, but a reload may come in handy in a gunfight, so I included the drill.
Maybe you don't agree ANY skill level should be a goal to achieve. Maybe you think that shooting for blood successfully is as easy as falling off a log, which, given the right circumstance, it well could be...but probably not.
What drill(s), if any, would you suggest?
My view is that the badguy won't care if you shoot or don't shoot competition. He will only care if you're able to make good hits in a relatively short time, much to his distress.
FireInCairo
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I wasn't commenting on all the comments, I was commenting on the original post:Interesting. So you're saying that people who shoot competition will be required to have greater skill in a gunfight than someone who simply carries a gun for defense.
The drills suggested are intended to define a basic threshold of skill, regardless of shooter background.
If you want to argue the second drill is irrelevant because it includes a reload, fine, but a reload may come in handy in a gunfight, so I included the drill.
Maybe you don't agree ANY skill level should be a goal to achieve. Maybe you think that shooting for blood successfully is as easy as falling off a log, which, given the right circumstance, it well could be...but probably not.
What drill(s), if any, would you suggest?
My view is that the badguy won't care if you shoot or don't shoot competition. He will only care if you're able to make good hits in a relatively short time, much to his distress.
"For those of us gettin' on in years, practicing with a 9mm can be delightful (especially if one's strong arm is riddled with arthritis in the wrist and fingers). On a recent range visit, I re-discovered that my venerable West German SIG P-226 is the softest-shooter of all my nines, as well as the most accurate pistol I own (well, I have one Series 70 Colt's Gov't Model that would probably edge it)."
Curt Blunt
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Not with that key lock....
buck460XVR
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If middle ground was the goal, why did the OP only include the thoughts and opinions of three folks supporting the carry of 9mm hi-cap firearms over larger caliber lower capacity firearms? Maybe I read it wrong, but I read this as another post of someone here trying to validate their own choices by quoting and giving examples of so called "experts" supporting their choice. I assume that's why there was no opinions expressed from the other side.....you know, to make it "middle ground". I respect the OPs choice, it is his choice to make, just as I ask him and others to respect mine. In the end, it is our lives and the lives of our loved ones that may depend on this choice. My statement was that I will make my choice on my experience and knowledge and the scenarios I am most likely to encounter, not because someone in a gun rag does it. Others are free to do as they chose.
Deer_Freak
Member.
What got me started with the 9mm is a Kel Tec P-11. It's not the most accurate gun but I can carry it in my pocket. Eleven 9mm rounds in my front pocket is a potent package. I can carry a 1911 or even larger revolvers but that is a hassle when I can just stick a gun in my pocket. Then I bought a Ruger P-95. Next thing you know I traded for an XD comp in 9 mm for IDPA. Plus I have several Hi Points and a 9mm carbine. The only handgun ammo I keep a lot of is 9mm and 357 mag. The 9mm has totally pushed the 38 spl out of my inventory.
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