"Putting down the man gun"

[DasFriek]

I just went today to buy an EDC for CCW carry and it was tough picking: Gun size VS caliber VS capacity VS gun platform.

Ive always been a .45 and a 1911 platform guy, But that dont define me. I passed up a 3" Kimber today due to it high issue rate and instead got an XDs .45 instead at $519 VS $800+ for the Kimber.
My next choice was a G29 or SR9c but neither was in stock anyhow.

This is how i ranked my "Needs" for this CCW weapon.
1. Size
2. Caliber
3. Capacity

 

[kgpcr]

I like my .40. Shoots a bigger bullet at higher speeds than a 9 and has the same number in the mag. Whats not to like?

 

[Bobson]

I like my .40. Shoots a bigger bullet at higher speeds than a 9 and has the same number in the mag. Whats not to like?

Which gun is that?

 

[David E]

Which gun is that?

I'm curious which load, too.

 

[hammerclaw56]

Glock 21

I carry a glock 21 gen 4 and fear no two legged creature:

 

[wkuban]

I carry a 642 or an LC9. Both are more uncomfortable to shoot than a 1911. I find the 1911 to large and too heavy. I like the 642 best for carry. I shoot a little better with the LC. I carry for self defense not looking for a fire fight.

 

[MrCleanOK]

Old Dog,

When I bought my first pistol, I subscribed to the "bigger is better" doctrine, and bought a Springfield XD45C. It has been a good gun, and I feel I have gotten more than my money's worth out of it. When I wanted a full-sized range/house gun, I bought an XD45 5". I liked the idea of caliber and parts commonality with my other pistol.

In the years since, I have taken two all-expenses-paid vacations to other parts of the world, and carried an M9 on both of them. I bought my own Beretta 92FS for training on my own time, and I can say that I shoot 9mm better than .45 ACP. I am accurate with both calibers, but I can be accurate faster with 9mm, I get more ammo in the magazine, and it costs less to train with.

When I get home from this current vacation, I believe I'll be trying to sell both .45's, and replacing them with one M&P 9mm with the right bells and whistles to correct their accuracy shortcomings.

So yes, I haven't put down my "man guns" just yet, but I am planning to.

 

[PabloJ]

I carry a glock 21 gen 4 and fear no two legged creature:

Great choice and impossible to beat. Marine Commandos should have gotten these instead of stupid 1911s with rails.

 

[Ankeny]

Several years ago I stopped carrying a 1911 in .45 ACP and went to a Glock 19/26 combo. Just had to get the high capacity (perceived) need filled. I recently went back to 1911's. I just shoot them better and I like the 1911 more.

My two primary carry guns are a Valor in .45 ACP or a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super Comp. I do have an M&P Shield 9mm for the hot months.

 

[PabloJ]

Several years ago I stopped carrying a 1911 in .45 ACP and went to a Glock 19/26 combo. Just had to get the high capacity (perceived) need filled. I recently went back to 1911's. I just shoot them better and I like the 1911 more.

My two primary carry guns are a Valor in .45 ACP or a Colt Lightweight Commander in .38 Super Comp. I do have an M&P Shield 9mm for the hot months.

G30 which is very similar in size to G19 carries standard magazine that can hold 10 cartridges. There is no need to give up the 'ManGun'. Incidentally standard magazine of G26 holds 10. Heck w/o using Google, Yahoo, Bing,... I do not know who Patrick Rogers or Chris Costa are.

 

[doc2rn]

That is precisely why my only semi-auto is an FNP-9, its easy on these old bones. Been saying it for years. I often wonder what would happen I found a BHP.

 

[psyopspec]

G30 which is very similar in size to G19 carries standard magazine that can hold 10 cartridges.

The Glock 19's 50% increase in rounds on deck is a good case in point. Similar dimensions, and both are handguns that suck for SD as much as all other handguns. Beyond that we split the hairs that get to what's ultimately a personal choice.

I know the names dropped here aren't familiar to you, but I've had the chance to check out the Costa/Haley DVD of the Magpul course they used to run together and it's very good stuff. Combine that with their backgrounds and experience, and when they talk, I listen. May not agree with all of it, but any opinions they give tend to be well-thought and well-formed.

 

[MagnumDweeb]

I carry concealed and prefer revolvers over semis so I go with a .357 magnum loaded snub nose revolver (Remington 125 grain SJHP). My other conceal carry is a Glock 23 and is taken when wardrobe allows. When I'm in street dress that allows a casual jacket I shoulder holster my Ruger P345 and pocket carry the snub nose .357 magnum.

Now can I shoot my Ruger SR9 better than my P345 at 20 yards, and faster? Yes but I'm not Rambo or the Lone Ranger. Any chance of me being in a confrontation will likely mean at arms length and I want the biggest baddest bullet I can get. And just in case there were an Aurora scenario. Again I can hit 11x8" targets at twenty yards with both guns.

So if you are a cop and it's a difference in capacity, then yeah I can see it. If you can shoot it better and cheaper, then I can see it. But for me, I'll keep mine. Good luck and stay safe.

 

[Panzercat]

Caliber is a hedge against sub optimal accuracy and penetration.

If you can dispense large quantities of head shots under stressful and dynamic situations using 9mm or smaller, awesomesauce! You win. But I can't help but to look at this thread while remembering the reason why law enforcement moved away from the 9mm... and that reason wasn't because everybody was dispensing large volumes of hyper accurate com fire with stunning effectiveness.

Just an observation, not a referendum on anybody's skill.

 

[bikerbill]

Interesting discussion ... I've had my CHL for almost 10 years, and my EDC has always been a Kahr PM9 .. I love it for its light weight, the fact it has never failed since I took it out of the box and that I shoot it very well ... but .. just picked up an XDs in .45ACP. I don't have enough rounds through it to make the transition, but when I do, I will be carrying it at least some of the time ... I prefer the bigger round for SD if I can have it in a gun that's small enough for me to carry every day without discomfort ... I'm 5-10 and 155, so not a lot of bulk to hide a big gun ...

 

[easyg]

I have recently moved away from the 9mm in favor of what I believe is a more effective round (all other things being equal)...the .357 magnum.

I went from carrying my Ruger SR9c to carrying my Ruger GP100.
I know, it's a huge change...compact autoloader to full-sized revolver.
But I have more confidence in the revolver and the .357 magnum caliber.

 

[SabbathWolf]

"You can choose a ready guide in some celestial voice
If you choose not to decide, you still have made a choice
You can choose from phantom fears and kindness that can kill
I will choose a path that's clear
I will choose freewill"

 

[golden]

9 for me

A couple of years ago, I decided to just use the 9m.m. for my defense guns. I have had many 1911's over the years and am familiar with them. I was also issued and still am issued a .40 S&W pistol.

The .45ACP does not offer any advantages to me over the 9m.m. and the .40 S&W only appeals when I am using high performance ammo, like the full power
155 and 165 grain hollow points. When I shoot this load, it is in a large gun like the BERETTA 96. On the other hand, this is a big and not very light gun, so it works well as a duty belt gun or house gun, but gets old when carried on my hip for 10 or 12 hours.

For my own use, I am going to stick with the 9m.m. If only hits count, then getting the most hits in the least amount of time is my goal. The 9m.m. has a shorter recovery time between shots and is the least tiring to shoot.
Even here, I draw the line at a gun that is no lighter than the GLOCK 19 and with a grip of similar size. Below this weight and grip size combination, I find that my shooting is slower and less accurate.

If I need a smaller size pistol, then I will use a .380ACP then!

Jim

 

[David E]

If only hits count, then getting the most hits in the least amount of time is my goal. The 9m.m. (SP) has a shorter recovery time between shots

Proper technique allows one to shoot .40 and .45 ACP virtually as fast and as accurate as the 9mm, presuming full size guns for all 3.

and is the least tiring to shoot.

Seriously?

 

[Penoe Hunter]

I can not see going back to 9mm s, there have been to many documented incident where multiple shots from a 9mm did not get the job done: the Miami FBI shoot out in the 90's a Ill. state trooper shooting a motorist 17 times and getting shot himself and in my personal experience a drug dealer got shot 23 times by two 9mms, shot both of his assailants and survived.

My department switched from S&W revolvers to Glock 17 and 19s I kept my wheelgun The regs changed I now carry a Glock 21 I don't like Glocks but I do like 45s

 

[golden]

Seriously

YES, DAVID E,

I was serious on both counts. I have been doing this for a while and what I used to do without much effort is now, work.

I shot a .45ACP exclusively, for many years. In a 38 ounce, metal gun, a .45ACP or high velocity .40 S&W is no worse than a 9m.m., but I do not want to carry a 38 ounce, 8 1/2 inch gun with me!

Try carrying it for 8 or 10 or 12 or more hours. It gets old. I ended up wearing a GLOCK 19 for a number of years and when I compared the recovery time of a GLOCK 19 with side by side of a GLOCK 21, it was obvious which gun was slower to recover, the .45 ACP GLOCK 21. This may not be a problem for you, but you are not me.

I am also planning for the future, by shooting a SIG 225, frequently. It is heavy enough, with a grip that is PERFECTLY SIZED to my hand, that recoil is a non-issue and gun weight is stilll way below that of the 1911 size guns.

Jim

 

[David E]

Try carrying it for 8 or 10 or 12 or more hours.

Ive fired 100's of 9mm's, .40's and .45's in a relatively short time and never felt tired out by the caliber. Granted, I was using full size guns. Ultra compacts or lightweights might've been a different story.

I've only been shooting centerfire guns for 37 years, so maybe I'm not old enough to have acquired debilitating conditions that will impact my shooting tolerance. May it ever be so! I've carried all steel 1911's all day for quite some time. I didn't really mind it, but lighter, smaller guns are easier to carry.

when I compared the recovery time of a GLOCK 19 with side by side of a GLOCK 21, it was obvious which gun was slower to recover, the .45 ACP GLOCK 21. This may not be a problem for you, but you are not me.

I'm curious how you timed this, but more curious about your technique. Nearly anyone in good health can use the technique I refer to (Modern Isosceles) with great results, so I'm not saying only _I_ can do it.

I am also planning for the future, by shooting a SIG 225, frequently. It is heavy enough, with a grip that is PERFECTLY SIZED to my hand, that recoil is a non-issue and gun weight is stilll way below that of the 1911 size guns.

Jim

Good gun. I'm glad you've found one that works for you.

 

[jim243]

To answer your question, yes I have in the past and changed and changed and changed again. For 20 years I used a Browning High Power, the main reason was the 13 round mag. So you could say I am very acquanted with the 9 mm. I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of 115 grain 9mm round, but felt that 3 or 4 rounds could be used to good advantage. 8 years ago I changed over to the 45 ACP (man gun) and tried that for a couple of years, even went out a bought a Kimber Eclipse Pro II which I loved and shot the best with. But after trying to carry a solid stainess steel pistol around all the time, the weight was just too much to be comfortable.

One of the problems with the 45 is the round count in the magazine, so to the store and a FNH FNP-40 was purchased, 14 +1 rounds in a poly framed stainless slide pistol. WELL, the 40 S&W is the worst of both worlds. Snappy recoil and a faster bullet to miss with, or at least not as accurate to hit with. (5 inch groups at 25 feet).

So now I decided to get an old favorite a CZ 75 P-01 good round count (14+1), fast recovery times, 124 grain 9mm +P, fantastic pistol grip, super reliable and easy to carry. (smaller size)

So now I should be happy, right? Well no, there is real world and what we think as real world. A) I am not a gun slinger and don't look for trouble. B) A 9mm on a druged up attacker will take 5 or more hits just to slow them down. C) I don't want to slow anyone down, just put them down to save my life or that of my family. D) faster is not better, more of the same is not better if it can't stop your problem.

What does work however is the 100 year old 45 ACP with a 230 grain hollow point bullet, maybe I will need two of them, but that's a lot better than standing there as a target unloading 5 or more 9mm rounds. So I am back to a 3.6 inch compact 45 ACP.

That's just my take on it. (stick to the 45 ACP)
Jim

 

[SabbathWolf]

To answer your question, yes I have in the past and changed and changed and changed again. For 20 years I used a Browning High Power, the main reason was the 13 round mag. So you could say I am very acquanted with the 9 mm. I have never been comfortable with the stopping power of 115 grain 9mm round, but felt that 3 or 4 rounds could be used to good advantage. 8 years ago I changed over to the 45 ACP (man gun) and tried that for a couple of years, even went out a bought a Kimber Eclipse Pro II which I loved and shot the best with. But after trying to carry a solid stainess steel pistol around all the time, the weight was just too much to be comfortable.

One of the problems with the 45 is the round count in the magazine, so to the store and a FNH FNP-40 was purchased, 14 +1 rounds in a poly framed stainless slide pistol. WELL, the 40 S&W is the worst of both worlds. Snappy recoil and a faster bullet to miss with, or at least not as accurate to hit with. (5 inch groups at 25 feet).

So now I decided to get an old favorite a CZ 75 P-01 good round count (14+1), fast recovery times, 124 grain 9mm +P, fantastic pistol grip, super reliable and easy to carry. (smaller size)

So now I should be happy, right? Well no, there is real world and what we think as real world. A) I am not a gun slinger and don't look for trouble. B) A 9mm on a druged up attacker will take 5 or more hits just to slow them down. C) I don't want to slow anyone down, just put them down to save my life or that of my family. D) faster is not better, more of the same is not better if it can't stop your problem.

What does work however is the 100 year old 45 ACP with a 230 grain hollow point bullet, maybe I will need two of them, but that's a lot better than standing there as a target unloading 5 or more 9mm rounds.

That's just my take on it. (stick to the 45 ACP)
Jim

5" groups @ 25 "FEET?"
WOW!
That's horrible!!!!!!!
5" groups @ 25 yards is more than bad enough!

 

[jim243]

5" groups @ 25 "FEET?"
WOW!
That's horrible!!!!!!!
5" groups @ 25 yards is more than bad enough!


Why do you think I sold both of my 40 S&W guns? (LOL)

And may I suggest that if you want to shoot at 25 yards or better, get a rifle.

I did, in 40 S&W a Hi Point 4095, I had all this ammo laying around ( I reload).

Jim