Pyrodex, Triple 7, or the real deal...

[sspierce8]

I’ve only used Goex 3f and have never had an issue.....ever. We’re talking many many years. If it ain’t broke, don’t fix it.

 

[rodinal220]

I'm kind of funny on this, but when I see its a black powder gun I use black powder in it, real black powder.

 

[gunsmither]

I go with the "real deal"!

 

[arcticap]

In 2011, a THR poll asked "What's your favorite powder and the one that you usually buy?"
The results indicated that about 2/3's of the folks preferred a brand of black powder.
The remaining 1/3 preferred a substitute powder.

73 people preferred black powder.
36 people preferred a substitute powder.

The 109 people who voted were probably firing a wide variety of different black powder guns.
That doesn't mean that some folks didn't enjoy using more than one powder since some mentioned that in their replies.

Poll --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/whats-your-favorite-powder.584783/

 

[Jim Watson]

I have seen recent recommendation for American Pioneer Powder fake for use in shackeldy old top break revolvers.

 

[Dave T]

When I started my own black powder journey in the mid-1980s I was afraid of real black powder so I was drawn to Pyrodex. I loaded it in 45-70s, 45 Colts and 12ga shotgun shells. I live in a dry, desert climate and still got minor pitting in the rifle and a Uberti revolver. On one occasion I couldn't get to the shotgun after a match and so sprayed it down with WD-40 to displace moisture. Finally got to clean it a day or two later and found noticeable pitting in one barrel and less but still some in the other barrel.

After fighting with Pyrodex for a year I switched to GOEX which was all that was available back then. Never corroded or rusted another gun for the next ten years.

Got away from black powder cartridge guns for years (life happened) but in my dotage I decided I wanted to shoot BPC again. Couldn't find any locally so I tried Black MZ, a copy of APP, which was highly recommended on a couple CAS forums. I could not match BP performance (kept my chronograph results from back in the old days) and the accuracy wasn't all that good. Tried OE and haven't looked back.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[Jim Watson]

I shot BPCR for several years. The report was 97% black, 3% Pyrodex, other fakes not allowed. I was only on the range with one Pyrodex user.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

Well considering the expense of the BP guns, especially the Lemat, and Perdesoli, I will probably stay with true BP. I will try some 2F and 3F and compare results.

The canon is Stainless steel, and I have not noticed any issues with cleaning, rust or pitting on the Cannon. I will use up the Pyrodex that I have on the Cannon. Then for simplicity stay with true BP in 2F for them. They seem to do best with 2F over 3F.

For the Pietta 1858, I will be using a percussion cylinder as well as a 45 colt conversion cylinder so will probably use real BP 3F for both. But I will make some trials in 2F as well.

I was just wondering if there were any advantages to one over the other in both cleaning and performance.

 

[rodwha]

Well considering the expense of the BP guns, especially the Lemat, and Perdesoli, I will probably stay with true BP. I will try some 2F and 3F and compare results.

The canon is Stainless steel, and I have not noticed any issues with cleaning, rust or pitting on the Cannon. I will use up the Pyrodex that I have on the Cannon. Then for simplicity stay with true BP in 2F for them. They seem to do best with 2F over 3F.

For the Pietta 1858, I will be using a percussion cylinder as well as a 45 colt conversion cylinder so will probably use real BP 3F for both. But I will make some trials in 2F as well.

I was just wondering if there were any advantages to one over the other in both cleaning and performance.

2F is dirtier than 3. But does that matter when you get home to clean it? In my revolvers I’ve shot maybe 60 shots without cleaning (an occasional wipe down of the exterior and Ballistol on the NMA base pin, which I’m not sure is necessary) and I doubt using 2F would cause me grief at the range.

It’s often said that to go from a 2F to 3F charge needs about a 10% reduction to achieve the same velocity. So yes 3F is more energetic and could potentially stretch out the powder a little over time.

 

[arcticap]

I was just wondering if there were any advantages to one over the other in both cleaning and performance.

I watched a youtube review of Pyrodex P vs. Goex 2F firing round ball from a Colt 1860.
When loading 25 grains of each, the Pyrodex P produced about an additional 50 FPS.
When loading 30 grains of each, the Pyrodex P produced about an additional 100 FPS.

Loading an equal volume of 777 would at least produce a similar increase in velocity over Goex 2F if not more.

25 grains
Pyrodex P 797 FPS
Goex 2F 743 FPS

30 grains
Pyrodex P 950 FPS
Goex 2F 858 FPS

From the youtube video titled "I didn't expect this! Goex vs. Pyrodex with Deuce and guns" beginning at the 7:00 mark.

 

[dave951]

I watched a youtube review of Pyrodex P vs. Goex 2F firing round ball from a Colt 1860.

Right there, I bolded and underlined the problem. I don't put anything in the results that yahoo put on utoob. 2F is for muskets and rifles. Lots of misinformation on there.

 

[rodwha]

Exactly. 2F/RS is always going to be slower than 3F/P. That seems to show that P likely performs about the same as standard 3F Goex, whereas T7 no doubt does. But I’ve seen varying results (horrendous and maybe from being opened a long time, on par with standard Goex, and comparable to Swiss (Olde E and T7). So I don’t trust it for my needs, and don’t like it because of the somewhat sticky residue after shooting revolvers a while.

 

[arcticap]

I was just wondering if there were any advantages to one over the other in both cleaning and performance.

Chrony results from another video compared 40 grain loads of each powder fired from a Colt Walker revolver loaded with round balls.

40 grains of Goex 2F produced an average velocity of 1082 FPS.
40 grains of Pyrodex P produced an average velocity of 1152 FPS.

The chrony figures came from the youtube video "Black Powder vs, Pyrodex, part 2: Chronograph testing" by Guns of the West.

 

[arcticap]

duplicate post

 

[dave951]

Chrony results from another video compared 40 grain loads of each powder fired from a Colt Walker revolver loaded with round balls.

40 grains of Goex 2F produced an average velocity of 1082 FPS.
40 grains of Pyrodex P produced an average velocity of 1152 FPS.

The chrony figures came from the youtube video "Black Powder vs, Pyrodex, part 2: Chronograph testing" by Guns of the West.

Aaannnndddd. He was using 2F in a handgun. Results discounted immediately. If it had been 3f, I'd feel differently.

 

[arcticap]

Aaannnndddd. He was using 2F in a handgun. Results discounted immediately. If it had been 3f, I'd feel differently.

The Pedersoli Howdah is a 20 gauge pistol.
The LeMat also has a 20 gauge barrel.

In short barrels such as the 5.5" Remington Sheriff model, Pyrodex P has also been shown to produce higher "average" velocity than Goex 3F.

Published chronograph velocity data for a 5.5 inch Remington 1858 revolver.

Powder by Volume-------Bullet Weight ------ Average Velocity

28 grains 3F Pyrodex----138 grain 451 ball----593 ft/s

32 grains 3F Pyrodex----138 grain 451 ball----700 ft/s

32 grains 3F Pyrodex----140 grain.454 ball----850 ft/s

35 grains 3F Pyrodex----138 grain 451 ball----875 ft/s

35 grains 3F Pyrodex----140 grain 454 ball----945 ft/s

35 grains 3F Pyrodex----143 grain 457 ball----960 ft/s

37 grains 3F Pyrodex----138 grain 451 ball----950 ft/s

37 grains 3F Pyrodex----143 grain 457 ball----960 ft/s

42 grains 3F Pyrodex----143 grain 457 ball----1019 ft/s

46 grains 3F Pyrodex----143 grain 457 ball----1050 ft/s

37 grains 3F GOEX BP--140 grain 454 ball----898 ft/s

40 grains 3F GOEX BP--140 grain 454 ball----949 ft/s

42 grains 3F GOEX BP--140 grain 454 ball----964 ft/s

Source: http://poconoshooting.com/blackpowderballistics.html

 

[woodnbow]

Good info... and Swiss 3f will usually beat Pyrodex P, and 777 leaves both of those in the dust... well, not really in the dust but maybe 25-35 FPS over Swiss. In a .44.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

All very interesting information to consider.

I’m not really concerned about bullet velocity when we are talking in differences of 100fps or less in difference. At these speeds it’s not going to really make that much difference. I’m not going to be hunting with any of these firearms, nor am I going to be using them for self defense against a human or an animal. (Only as a last resort, when everything else in the world has failed)

So more interested in safety, cleaning, and getting a good loud and fun bang for my buck. Just going to be shooting targets of all types from paper, to steel, to melons and other fruits and veggies.

I am going to do some testing of my own. I ordered the following in both 2F and 3F. 1lb of each.

Goex, Tripple 7, OE and Swiss, and Pyrodex “P” as I allready have RS for my cannon.

I will see which gives me the best accuracy, the loudest bang, and which is easiest to clean, as well as which gets the dirtiest.

One thing I do know, is the Pyrodex RS in my Cannon has done real well and I haven’t had any issues with cleaning, pitting, rusting etc. Then again it’s stainless steel and after a day of firing it, I put it in my sonic cleaner for 15 min at 140 degrees. Dry it and put it away.

 

[rodwha]

Here’s some testing by a fellow on another forum:








The Grafs powder listed is the rebranded Schuetzen brand.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

A Perdasoli 20 gauge percussion Howdah, a Pietta Lemat, and a Pietta 1858 44cal......, Is their an Advantage to using Pyrodex or Triple 7? Or even true BP? I have also noticed Pyrodex Select. A little more expensive, but only available in 2Fg RS version. I am also considering purchasing the golf ball cannon made right here in Texas. 18” Barrel with overall 21” length. They are still recommending using 2Fg on that cannon and not 1Fg. Would this change anything on powder selection?

Sorry if all my this reply contains is already stated information...,

You certainly have a lot of incoming stuff ; Santa drives a UPS van down you way, eh? God Bless Texas!

Is there an advantage of the substitutes Pryodex and Triple Seven over Black Powder? IF you are the person selling them, YES absolutely! For the shooter...., Maybe....
First. Pyrodex was the first substitute. It was made because HazMat laws came into being regarding shipping of "explosives", and Black Powder is considered a "Low Explosive". You see signs from time to time at construction sites, "DANGER HIGH EXPLOSIVES"...well BP is the most common low explosive.

Here's the Dirty Little Secret...pun intended...Pyrodex IS black powder. Black powder formula is from 60-80% Potassium Nitrate, 10-20% sulfur, and 10% charcoal. (In fact you can omit the sulfur but it take really high heat to set it off.) So you take 80% Potassium Nitrate, and cut that in half with Potassium Perchlorate, then use 10% sulfur, and 10% charcoal, and you get a product that will burn not explode, so all the folks who sold black powder and could not afford the "explosives storage container" approved by the Federal Government, suddenly had a product they could legally store, For caplocks it worked fine, and they named this product PYRODEX. It is, however, pretty dirty, and often is found to foul worse than black powder.

So, to try and mitigate the fouling, the formula is changed to this...
Charcoal 10%
Sodium Benzoate 10%
Dicyaniamide 10%
Dextrin 10%
Potassium Nitrate 30%
Potassium Perchlorate 30%
Which makes the Pryodex into Triple 7, and I am told that it still may be stored without special containers at the store, and neither Pyrodex nor Triple 7 violate the laws in some areas where housing regulations for apartments and townhomes say one may not store black powder, and finally, it is supposed to burn cleaner. I don't know..., never use the stuff. I do flintlocks mostly, and the ignition temp is too high on both to get "reliable" ignition without mitigation steps.

So IF you can get the stuff, and if it's legal for you to store, then buy black powder in bulk. HazMat and shipping fees are a one time cost for several pounds, so with say 10 lbs. ordered from Graf & Sons (for example) you only add a few dollars per pound including the shipping. Where you are in Texas this may not be much savings, but where I am in the People's Republic of MAЯYLAИD where black powder runs $25 a pound or more, it quickly adds up. Most of the black powder suppliers will let you mix and match, so you could try 1 lb. of 1Fg, and then divide the rest of the order based on how much of the stuff you consume.

I hope this helps

LD

 

[OrangePwrx9]

Pyrodex P works fine in my 1858. Cleanup is not difficult. You get more 'pops' per lb. with Pyrodex because it's less dense and it's easy to find around here. I have the holy black and a fair amount of it in 3f, but I use Pyro P in the handguns and RS in the rifles whenever possible, partly because it's easy to replace.

I've heard that Pyrodex is much more corrosive than real black and harder to clean up. I've heard virtually the same thing about real black compared to Pyrodex. So to me, it 6 one way, half a dozen the other. If you clean up thoroughly the same day as shooting, you never see corrosion. I rank cleanup as no more difficult with Pyrodex, maybe even easier; but that's what I mostly shoot so I'm used to it.

 

[frontiergander]

https://buckskinsbp.blogspot.com/2019/10/choices-galore-substitute-black-powder.html

 

[arcticap]

Good info... and Swiss 3f will usually beat Pyrodex P, and 777 leaves both of those in the dust... well, not really in the dust but maybe 25-35 FPS over Swiss. In a .44.

What really illustrates that the substitute powders "are usually" more energetic than black powders are due to the fact that they weigh much less for an equal volume,
yet they deliver nearly the same or better performance from that lesser weight.
That means that the sub. powders can often offer a cost savings per shot because there are more shots per pound.

100 grains by volume of Goex 3F weighs 101.1 grains, while the same volume of APP 3F weighs 78.4 grains, 777 2F weighs 77.2 grains,
777 3F weighs 81.4 grains, and Pyrodex P weighs 76.0 grains. --->>> https://www.curtrich.com/BPConversionSheet.htm

These volume to weight conversions suggest that some of the sub.'s may be 10% - 25% more potent by weight.
And if we look at the fact that volume equivalent loads of 777 need to be reduced by 15% - 20%, then 777 is more energetic by an even larger percentage by weight.

There's always going to be exceptions depending on the type of gun, barrel length and the granulation of the substitute., even the amount of powder compression.
I wouldn't expect Pyrodex RS to exceed 2F black powder performance on an equal volume basis, but perhaps it could on an equal weight basis.

With respect to weight comparisons, the sub. powders should essentially be able to produce the velocity of Swiss at a much lower price.
That's especially true due to Swiss weighing about 11% more than Goex for an equal volume.

 

[Texasgrillchef]

I do find this in this book....

which gives pyrodex an advantage as far as cleaning in between shots.


“The rule is: do not let fouling build up. This rule changes, however, with different powders and even lubrications. For example, several shots can be fired in a row without undue powder buildup with Pyrodex, while regular blackpowder normally requires more frequent in-betweens-shot-string bore cleaning.”

— The Complete Blackpowder Handbook: The Latest Guns and Gear by Sam Fadala

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

“The rule is: do not let fouling build up. This rule changes, however, with different powders and even lubrications. For example, several shots can be fired in a row without undue powder buildup with Pyrodex, while regular blackpowder normally requires more frequent in-betweens-shot-string bore cleaning.”

That depends on what you are trying to do. First and foremost, you must use a bullet lube that is compatible with Black Powder. Ordinary modern hard cast bullet lube is not compatible with Black Powder. If used with Black Powder, modern bullet lubes will combine with the fouling and create a hard deposit in the bore that builds up, ruining accuracy. This hard fouling also requires a lot of elbow grease at cleaning time to be removed. There are ways around this, but they tend to get complicated.

With real Black Powder you do not have to clean the bore between shots or shot strings. Absolutely not. Been doing this a long time now.

There are a bazillion recipes for Black Powder compatible bullet lubes. I used to make my own up out of 50/50 Beeswax and Crisco. There are also many commercial Black Powder compatible bullet lubes on the market, my favorite is SPG. The key to a good Black Powder compatible bullet lube is it remains soft and gooey. That's really all there is to it. When a bullet lubed with BP compatible soft, gooey lube is shot down the barrel, the soft lube combines with the fouling and keeps it soft. Each succeeding bullet then sweeps out the soft fouling left behind by the last shot, leaving behind soft fouling of its own. Then the next shot sweeps that on, and so on and so on.

If you are striving for consistent long range accuracy with a single shot rifle such as a Sharps, the standard technique with real Black Powder is to use a blow tube in between shots to blow into the bore. The moisture in your breath will keep the fouling in the bore soft.

This is the blow tube I made up many years ago when I was shooting my 45-70 Sharps in competition. It was made from a spent 45-70 case, a piece of tubing about 8 inches long, and a piece of brass tubing to marry them together. It has been a long time, but I think what I did was find a piece of brass tubing that would fit inside the plastic tubing, then drill out the 45-70 case head to accept the piece of brass tubing. Then I soldered them together. The plastic tubing is a slip fit over the 'nipple'. The technique is after each shot I inserted the blow tube into the chamber, then softly exhaled into it. You don't want to blow hard, you just exhale normally. The moisture in your breath will keep the fouling soft. I seem to remember I would blow into the tube three times between each shot. This kept the fouling soft and did not allow it to harden. Then each bullet could do its job of scrubbing the bore of most of the fouling, leaving behind fresh soft fouling behind it. I would do this for an entire match of 20 shots or so (it's really been a long time now, I'm working from memory.) I did not do any cleaning or scrubbing in between shots, I only used the blow tube as described.






For CAS I use special bullets that hold an enormous amount of soft BP lube in them. Using these, I can shoot all day long, 60 rounds or more out of my rifle and 30 rounds or more out of my revolvers, and accuracy does not suffer.

When I first started shooting Black Powder I had not heard of the Big Lube bullets, which carry so much lube. I was pan lubing regular hard cast bullets with my own concoction of Black Powder compatible bullet lube.at that time. Because the lube grooves on commercial hard cast bullets are not very large, my pan lubed bullets did not carry much lube on them. This was fine for the short barrel of a revolver, but with a rifle hard fouling would be deposited at about the last six inches of the barrel. I would swab the bore out with my favorite water based BP solvent halfway through the match to bring back the accuracy. With the Big Lube family of bullets, each bullet, 45 Colt, 44-40, or 38-40, carries enough soft lube to keep the fouling in the bores soft all day.

I never completely clean the bores out until I am all done shooting for the day.

In this photo, my standard Big Lube 44-40 bullet is on the left. I think I recall the bullet in the middle was a commercial bullet sold for Black Powder. It had two small lube grooves filled with a commercial Black Powder compatible lube. The one on the far right is one of my pan lubed hard cast bullets. Notice there is just one skimpy lube groove. My experience was the only bullet that performed well in my rifles, keeping the fouling soft the entire length of the bore, was the bullet on the left.






In this photo, the cartridge and bullets on the left are 44-40, the cartridge and bullets on the right are 45 Colt. The bullets are the Big Lube bullets. I have stripped the lube out of one bullet of each caliber to demonstrate how much lube they carry. Like I said, I can shoot all day long with this ammunition, my bores never get crudded up with hard fouling.






This is a photo of my Black Powder bullets. Left to right, the first four are for 38-40, 44-40 and 44 Russian, 45 Schofield, and 45 Colt. They are all Big Lube bullets carrying lots of BP compatible lube. The tall bullet is the 405 grain bullet I use for 45-70. It is not a Big Lube bullet, it is a traditional design. Notice it has many small lube grooves, each filled with BP compatible lube. This is the bullet I used in my Sharps, and more recently in my Trapdoor. I used the blow tube with the Sharps, I did not bother with my Trapdoor. Lastly all the way on the right is one of my pan lubed bullets.






Bottom line, with real Black Powder if you use the right type of bullet and the right type of lube, there is no need to clean the bore while you are at the range. You can wait until you get home.

I have no idea how Pyrodex performs because I have never used it.

P.S. I cannot edit my earlier post for some reason. Anyway, over the years I have used a variety of brands of Black Powder. Goex, Elephant, Schuetzen, and a couple of others I cannot remember. Elephant is not made any more. Between the two, I find that Schuetzen burns cleaner and leaves less fouling behind than Goex. This is because it uses a better grade of charcoal than Goex. Swiss is supposed to be the best, and cleanest burning, but I have never used it because it is more expensive. I go through a lot of BP every year. Schuetzen is clean enough for me. Until very recently, the stuff Graf was selling was actually Schuetzen, but they relabeled it into their own bottles. I understand Graf is now selling a different brand of BP, but I cannot remember which brand.

As I said before, I load everything with FFg. FFg Schuetzen to be specific. FFFg will boost the velocity a little bit, but I don't really need the extra velocity.

Here is one of my old cans of Elephant, not made anymore. I seem to recall this powder was made in Brazil.






Look at the price on that old can of Goex on the right! I bought a few cans off a friend a few years ago. That is a really old price. A more modern can is on the left.






This is the stuff I have been using for quite a few years now. Notice it is actually made in Germany by Wano. As I said earlier, it leaves less fouling behind than Goex, and costs about the same as Goex. Swiss costs more.