Q re: loading defensive ammo

[pcf]

The kahr has a 3-3.5" barrel? I'd try a faster powder like Titegroup or n310. W231 would be another good choice but it has a very bright flash (it's small but bright) and it's coated in ridiculous amounts of graphite.

Bandit
I always keep a handful of 44s loaded with w296 and heavy lubed cast bullets for payback when people shoot my targets at the range. If the blast doesn't scare em off the smoke does.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I load 8.0gr of Power Pistol under 200gr Speer Gold Dot JHP's and use them in my Kimber for CCW. Its pushing 965fps out of the 4" barrel and accuracy is darn good. I do not use a progressive press to load this ammo. Each charge is weighed on my RCBS 5-0-5 and is primed and seated on a single stage press. I am very meticulous on this load for obvious reasons.

I also use this in my Bersa Mini Firestorm with a 3.25" barrel but haven't clocked them yet with a chrono.

Recipe for Power Pistol; http://recipes.alliantpowder.com/rg...=.45&cartridgedescr=ACP+P&bulletdescr=200 JHP

 

[Gary H]

Agreed, I wasn't going to load this on my progressive. I should be able to keep very tight tollerances by weighing each drop and using a single stage press.

 

[WayneConrad]

Like Standing Wolf, I have no chrono and so buy my defensive ammo rather than make it. Hollow points are made to work in specific velocity ranges, and I'd rather not guess that I've got the right velocity.

 

[Gary H]

Yes, especially shooting JHP from a short barrel, I would be concerned that it would not open, or if designed to open at low velocities, it might be more prone to not opening when shooting through heavier material.

I've pretty much eliminated Power Pistol due to flash.

 

[pcf]

Wayne not to be a total smartass but how do you know that your factory ammo is performing in the appropiate range in your pistol? And have you tested your current lot of ammunition?

Factory ammo varies lot by lot, primers change, powders change, cases change, bullet alloys changed.

 

[Lennyjoe]

I've pretty much eliminated Power Pistol due to flash

I haven't noticed much flash but then again I haven't done much shooting in the eve. Maybe I'll try it out and see if I need to change powders due to flash in low light.

 

[Dave R]

I use a 'defensive load' in my short-barreled PT-145. 230gr. loads were only chrono-ing at 700-750fps, which I thought a bit low. So I use a 185gr. Gold Dot moving around 900fps.

 

[MachIVshooter]

the best defense load is the one that shoots the most accurately in your pistol and you can shoot accurately.

I disagree. For defensive ammunition, there are more important criteria such as reliability and stopping power. If you shoot someone at a distance greater than 25 feet, unless he was shooting at you, you're going to jail. Accuracy is a non-issue at defensive ranges. It is much more important that your gun works and that it stops the threat with the fewest possible rounds, since you are accountable for every round fired. I have heard plenty of guys say "I carry 230 ball ammo so I won't get sued". That is nonsense. A legal defensive shooting is just that, regardless of gun/ammo combination. But the more rounds you have to fire, the greater the chance of an innocent casualty by a bullet that missed it's mark. I carry a 10mm and I handload 180 grain Gold Sabres with IMR 800x to a velocity of 1342 FPS from my 3.5" Witness. I am confident that, barring the BG being on meth or PCP, this round will drop a threat with one torso shot, regardless of the attacker's size.

All that said, the most important thing is that you be very proficient with your CCW and train enough that reaction is instinctual to the best it can be using training scenarios.

 

[WESHOOT2]

low flash = 3N37

1) reliability - first it MUST go bang.

2) terminal performance - will the bullet perform the correct work?

3) accuracy - will the bullet strike where aimed?

4) other stuff.......

 

[WayneConrad]

Wayne not to be a total smartass but how do you know that your factory ammo is performing in the appropiate range in your pistol? And have you tested your current lot of ammunition?

Good questions.

Well, I don't know. I have no way of knowing. It's a case of having to trust some experts to do their job, vs. trusting myself, a complete amateur with no way to measure the performance of my loads.

In trusting the experts, I am hoping that their experience, their desire to have favorable reviews, and their desire to keep lawyers at bay will motivate them to produce good defensive loads.

I'd rather trust myself, but having neither ballistics gel nor a chronograph, I lack the most basic tools to verify that my loads will perform properly.

How should I test the defensive ammo I currently carry? Of course I've tested it for function in my pistol. It goes bang every time and hits about where I aim. What I'm trusting Speer for is that they've matched the velocity to the bullet so that the bullet will perform well, something I will gladly do myself once I get a chronograph.

I claim that as long as a round goes "bang" every time with the right velocity for the bullet to do its job, that variation in components doesn't mean anything for pistol defense ammo. It's not bullseye, and it doesn't matter if the ammo makes a 6" group at 25 yards or a 3" group. Any variations in ballstics will be insignificant when I'm shooting quickly, or on the run, or my hands are shaking from adrenalin.

(Added): I think I was a little snippy this morning when I wrote this. I'm sorry. Not only did you ask a really good question, but I'm not convinced I'm correct in my opinion. For one thing, some load manuals give velocities for their test barrels. Is there so much potential variation in velocity from components or pistols that one couldn't just pick the load with the bullet manufacturer's target velocity and use that?

 

[NH_N-Frame]

Defensive use of Reloads

My fellow Granite Stater, Mas Ayoob, makes case on the defensive use of reloads. He pointedly refers to the civil repercussions, which, as OJ found out, might be quite different than the criminal ones. I know some states are really particular about deadly force, and its application by civilians. When I had my San Diego carry card, in the mid 80's, I know there was a whole lot more to concern oneself with than just the ammo used, and for some reason I just don't think things have gotten any better out there.
When I took my CCW class in Westminster, CO, the police officer who taught the deadly force segment made it quite plain how one would be treated, even in a state that has a "make my day" law. You could count on being arrested, you could count on having the case number assigned your specific incident etched into the finish of the firearm you lawfully used to defend yourself. And while the Sunshine State just upped the ante in favour of us poor ignorant civilians, I don't think we need to worry about universal reciprocity any time soon.
In light of that, and much more, I find it kind of counter productive to carry home brewed rounds in my carry weapons. But, since we do live in America, you are free to do what you like, sort of. I find the Ranger line of SXT's does it for me. In every firearm I carry, from 380 to 45, I think I can rely on them to do what I need. And as a mere footnote in the history of terminal ballistics, those Golden Sabres y'all were talking about were designed by the same engineer who created the Ranger/Black Talon/SXT I prefer.

 

[Gary H]

3N37 & N340

I couldn't find reloading data for 230 LRN. The manufacturer doesn't even have it listed as a .45ACP powder, but uses on other cartridges in the .45 range. I've seen data for N340 and it claims to be low flash.

How does N340 differ from 3N37?
Where to find reloading data?

 

[callgood]

I'm in the process of working up a load for a S&W .38 special snub I have. I'm using Speer 135 gr Gold Dots loaded to non +p for practice, hotter for real deal.

Speer is marketing a line of Gold Dots designed for use in short barrels. You can check it out on their web site. The bullet I'm using is recommended for use around 860 fps.

You don't want to load too fast, as you may encounter seperation. Speer covers this in regards to their .357 mag loads.

I think one must be darn sure of what they are doing in order to load for self defense. When I was starting out with 10mm, I was tinkering around with the crimp and had some problems chambering some of the rounds. I wouldn't want to get caught with a mag of a load I was still working on.

As far as the liabliity is concerned, I think it will be way down on the list of your considerable problems in the event of even a good shoot. If it were a legitimate concern, wouldn't we all be relying on .25 autos?

 

[Gary H]

I now understand why everyone loves Power Pistol. Ignoring flash, it seems to be unique (no pun intended). Folks report almost equivalent results with AA#5, but complain that it is dirty. Maybe flash doesn't really matter. It certainly doesn't matter in a one to one encounter that lasts less than four seconds. Speer loads their 230gr GDSB to 820fps out of a four inch barrel. Now, that is a pretty heavy load. I would think that we would be pushing 870fps out of a 5". If that is what Speer loads to, then someone rolling their own had better do the same. So, I'll get some Power Pistol. I bet that the new Speer loaded ammo is pretty low flash, so that might be a good argument for using factory ammo. I don't buy the legal reasons. If a shoot is good, it is good. If it is bad, they will (in my area) make sure that the rest of your life is a living hell.

Just received this from Speer:

"Gary
'IF' the new Speer 45 230gr. SB (short barrel) follows suit with what was done on the 38+p SB, it will have its own set of load data because the bullet HP is a new design. That having been said, the 45 Auto SB ammunition (part #23975)is not scheduled to be released until mid Sept. The component bullet (I don't even have a part # for it yet) usually follows. I don't have any data for it yet and I'm not sure when it will be available."