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Quality of Mid-Priced Knives

Discussion in 'Non-Firearm Weapons' started by 460Shooter, Oct 9, 2019.

  1. Goosey

    Goosey Member

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    If I was going to design a folder for that purpose it would look like an Emerson Persian but with a thumb stud and a Tri-Ad lock. I'd want something with a strong lock, secure grip, guard and pointy blade, the rest is fluff.

    tumblr_mu3t9kjl621shxqhro1_1280.jpg
     
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  2. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    The other point after find training to decide what works for you before buying several knives looking for just the right one (although buying several knives is a lot of fun, but eventually expensive) is that you want to keep a defensive knife in scary sharp condition all the time. That way when the unexpected threat shows up, who waits around for an expected one ;), it will serve you to the best of its ability. That means you carry one for defensive use and another for utility.

    For some people this is a negative, but for others it means you have something that won't frighten people while you're opening an envelope or cleaning your nails or popping the cap off a bottle. That means you have a reason to buy more than one knife, a good thing from my perspective. I have a 1990's Victorinox Master Craftsman that I carry all the time that serves the utility purpose. What I carry for defensive use is based on my training and practice and should rarely be seen or used outside of training/practice.
     
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  3. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    You've been given some excellent advice. Especially pay attention to what hso said about training.

    In the meantime, jmr gave some good advice for knives that will serve well as good GP knives, with the potential to be used defensively- I will caveate that by saying I do not believe in liner locks for anything buy light use.

    I do have many Spydercos, and they worked with Sam Owens and I to produce a defensive knife, the ARK, that I believe is one of the finer examples of neck knives, but it would not be my first choice in a defensive knife. I carried a Spyderco Native for over 10 years, until I eventually upgraded to a Spyderco LW Manix II for EDC.

    I do NOT advise most "flippers" for SD, as you will have to move your hand significantly to use the knife defensively.

    John
     
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  4. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I agree that flippers require fine motor control to use and that fine motor control often disappears in dire circumstances.

    I don't recommend karambits since they require training to use properly. I've been trained in them, but I don't carry one. If you get proper training and you stay in practice with one they can be a good choice, but most people don't want to spend the time to get the training or stay in practice.

    If you can carry a fixed blade legally and conceal it effectively then such a knife like the TDIs can be very quick and simple to deploy and put to use with minimal training. Pull and punch and keep punching.
     
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  5. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I'm hearing you loud and clear, and I think that's excellent advice. I came in without a real starting point to make a decision, when the reality is that the technique and style that I learn will dictate the style of knife, not the other way around. I came into this the way a newbie wanders into the General Handgun sub-forum and says "I'd like to buy a handgun for defense. What should I buy?" In those cases the carry preference, semiauto design vs a revolver, desired cartridge, etc. make a good recommendation impossible as the specifics of the user and desired outcome are too vague. So I'm going to just throw style of knife, as in blade shape, out the window for now. It's really the least important part at this point.

    Ultimately I think my purpose was to not spend money on a piece of crap, or on a bunch of different knives I don't use for anything. I haven't bought anything and don't plan to until I've done some more research into a local or semi local trainer.

    By the way HSO, I appreciate the edit to your post.
    Good advice, and thank you for a training name to look up. I need something very basic for beginners.
    That's exactly the condition I want to keep this knife, and the way it's intended to be used. I mean to treat it as I do a concealed firearm. It ONLY comes out in public if I need to actually use it to defend myself. I keep a little 440C folding blade in my pocket at all times for general needs, and it would continue to be carried.

    I have considered a folding knife but all the reading I've done seems to indicate that for defensive purposes a fixed blade is a better option for many reasons. My state has pretty much zero restrictions on fixed blade length on a concealed knife. However the city I regularly venture into for groceries and other civilization needs has a 3" blade limit for concealed knives. So I'm thinking a fixed blade of an unspecified as of yet style, as close to 3" as possible. Though I don't know how much emphasis to put on blade length really. I suppose the longer the better for deeper penetration potential.

    That was a concern of mine. I live in the middle of nowhere for the most part, and finding training locally, or even within a reasonable travel distance may be difficult. Frankly, that style of knife looks like it requires a fair amount of practice and instruction to use well. I plan to do a little Google-fu this weekend and see if I can find anyone here. The reason a karambit came to mind for me was I pictured a situation where someone has already gotten to you and is in direct contact. It seems you'd be able to hook an arm, or slash with a close quarters pushing motion and really do some catastrophic damage quickly with it. I mean obviously there's a lot more to it than that simplistic idea, but it looks very effective in the right hands.
    However without a local trainer it may be moot.

    I appreciate all the good suggestions and guidance so far.
     
  6. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I thought it advisable, prednesone for walking pneumonia had me in Tazmanian Devil mode. :oops:

    Don't get me wrong, buying knives is a lot of fun, but buy good ones. I've been feeding my habit for decades and there are months that go by that I don't buy a knife because nothing interests me or what interests me requires me to save up. ;) Anymore when asked how many knives do I have I respond with "Two". That generally leads to a questioning look and a following "Two dozen, two hundred, ???" , to which I respond, "Too many." But can you really have too many knives? :D
     
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  7. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Ugh. Feel better man.

    I imagine buying knives is like buying guns. When you find a design you like made of quality materials, it's a beautiful thing, and the desire to own it is there. I own more guns than I need for this reason. A few of them I only shoot a few times a year, but I enjoy them every time. But I do have a lot of stuff, and paying my mortgage and saving for retirement is more important too me right now than having a lot of stuff I don't use that will just take up space.

    Quality and function are what matters to me right now, as most of the knives I've owned from my younger days were junk. In Googling I came across HavocWorks.
    https://havocworks.com/product/small-karambit-with-prototype-handles/

    Again, not saying I'd buy this to carry without following the training advice that's been given, just saying I see the utility and find it a beautiful design. And I may buy one simply for the joy of ownership.
    PC230374.jpg

    No idea on their actual quality though and at $265, I need to decide how much I want to own it, especially given I may not use it much for anything.

    There's also this larger version for like $350.
    DSC01124-2-600x400.jpg

    At the very least they'd make a nice heirloom for my nephew some day.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  8. earplug

    earplug Member

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    I would adopt the use of a cane instead of a blade. A cane is ADA compliant, IMHO easier to deploy and gives you better range, power and velocity then a typical knife blade. Keeping one in your office, vehicle and home would cost less then your budgeting now.
    If your traveling a cane is TSA compliant and you can collect them if you like sticks. Cold Steel makes some interesting options.
     
  9. bikerdoc

    bikerdoc Moderator Staff Member

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    As with knives get cane/stick training. Practice a few simple moves and you are the toughest mother In the valley.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  10. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    :D While that isn’t a bad idea I’m only 38, close to 39, and in pretty good shape. I’m just picturing the conversation with my boss as to why I’m using a cane.

    None the less though, when hiking a trail, I do use a walking stick and have been considering a more rigid and pointed stick/cane.

    The nice part is I’m a professional forester and can totally get away with keeping a hatchet at my desk. I could probably get away with a Jacob Staff also.
    9E5AAAC5-B36C-4AA2-83BB-4577C9F5D453.png

    In fact as a forester I probably have more makeshift workplace weapons at my disposal than most professionals.
     
    Last edited: Oct 13, 2019
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  11. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator Staff Member

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    Maybe it's just me...or the angle of the picture...but the curve on that blade looks a bit tight
     
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  12. JShirley

    JShirley Administrator Staff Member

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    Yes!

    If you're a forester, you probably also can get away with frequently carrying large knives that would be out of place for almost anyone else.

    I have now trained more with sticks than any other weapon except the M4. For defensive use, a stick beats knife in most situations.

    The best approach is to understand how to use sticks, sharps, and flexibles for defense. It's then easy to always have "low observability" tools that can be pressed into defensive use. I have, for example, frequently traveled with a sturdy small flashlight on one end of a long paracord lanyard, with a heavy carabiner on the other end. It usefully clips onto a belt loop, and also extends my reach by about 30".

    Of course, a firearm takes less time to learn proficiency, and gives the ability to stop a threat at a distance.

    One maker with lots of sturdy knives with decent steel is Ganzo. I have a couple, and have given many away. They're good to use and practice with until you get a better idea of what you're looking for.

    John
     
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  13. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    It’s not just you. If you do a little YouTubing the maker explains he intentionally kept the curve and angle tighter than normal on other karambits. He designed it this way specifically so if a user was throwing a punch, the blade would penetrate in a forward stabbing motion. He demonstrated this with the larger knife and a full arching slash on a pork shoulder. The slash cut very deeply and a straight punch made a very clean stab wound. Both looked very effective but obviously there’s a difference between using it on a stationary hunk of meat lacking bones versus an attacker. I also have no idea if this particular design would be beneficial to someone with actual training with these types of knives. It may just be a fantasy driven my the makers opinion.

    Exactly. Even though my office is expressly signed that firearms and “dangerous weapons” are prohibited, it’s a natural resource management outfit. Everyone who works here has a pocket knife, multi tool, or large folder on their person. Everyone. Our equipment IS dangerous weaponry by its very nature. I won’t break the gun rule, because there’s no getting around that, but a large knife I’m pretty sure I could have with me without anyone ever knowing and even if someone saw it, I could explain it away.

    However your comment and earplug’s comment are making me wonder if maybe the staff I listed wouldn’t be a better idea as it wouldn’t draw attention. I could even attach a stainless knob of some kind on the upper end and there’s a steel spear point on the bottom. No one would bat an eye. I could even carry it in the woods as a “walking stick”. It’s just a piece of forestry equipment, right?

    I still want to buy a good knife though for outside work gun free zones.

    Thanks for the heads up on Ganzo. I’ll give them a look.
     
    Last edited: Oct 12, 2019
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  14. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    I certainly understand that rabbit hole, but I would recommend studying traditional ones from Indonesia or Philippines before settling on a western interpretation. What we mostly see isn't what the fighting style started with. ;)
     
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  15. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Yep
     
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  16. TikkaShooter

    TikkaShooter Member

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    IMO, choose a knife which supports a variety of grips or hammer, ice pick, reverse ice pick, saber, modified saber and Filipino etc. Some knives lean towards one grip, a couple or more..
    PS: I can carry a 3.8" clip folder a lot easier than a stick. Specially when carrying groceries. ;)
     
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  17. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    Copy
     
  18. WrongHanded
    • Contributing Member

    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    Fallkniven, laminated VG-10 stainless steel. The F1 is a good general purpose knife, or the S1 if you want just a little more blade. You won't be disappointed with their offerings.
     
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  19. Browning

    Browning Member

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    That’s the fixed blade I like the best. The F1.

    Probably the next candidate for a pocket sheath.

    9680ECF0-B3EE-4ADA-84FB-0AF41EFB7D99.jpeg
     
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  20. bubba in ca

    bubba in ca Member

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    Long winded and if you click on all his footnotes you may lose your mind, this guy is pretty good on psychology and related legalities.
    http://www.nononsenseselfdefense.cotameframem/proamateurknifer.htm

    And keep in mind that martial arts are more hobby than combat training. The Army devotes 8 hours to hand to hand for infantry troops and less for bayonet. That is because they are not business people who need to come up with new stuff to keep the school going or to worship ancients traditions. Nothing wrong with hobbies, but view them as such and pick up little useful bits as soon as you can.
     
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  21. bubba in ca

    bubba in ca Member

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    Use what you got! In my yard/shop where I spend most mornings I have a spading fork (not to be confused with a pitch fork) that would be my go to over any knife available to me. If I were a forester I would get real handy with a pet axe.
     
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  22. ArfinGreebly

    ArfinGreebly Moderator Emeritus

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    I haven't been in the game as long as hso or John Shirley, and those guys are my go-to when it comes to blades.

    However, as much as I tend to over-carry with pocket hardware, I'm leaning more toward sticks and staffs. From your description, it sounds like you'll have some flexibility.

    I also have a nifty umbrella that will take real punishment (see "unbreakable umbrella" videos); it ain't cheap but it's inconspicuous and very sturdy.
     
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  23. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    A fair point. Honestly I think a few classes would go a long way for me, at least in learning some fundamentals.
    Yes, as stated, I am able to keep several items on hand in my office that are perfectly adequate for self defense, as the threat of any kind of attack is relatively low. But of course I am not always in my office. I have meetings to attend in different places where a hatchet will stand out like a sore thumb, and even though I'm a forester, carrying a hatchet in the woods all day gets a little old since I can put on up to 12 miles walking in a day sometimes. But, as I stated before the Jacob staff I mentioned earlier makes perfect sense for me, as it would be very useful just making it through the woods.

    I have contemplated the responses I've gotten in this thread and realized I needed to think about things in a much more layered and wholistic approach. I found the comments about a stick funny at first, but then realized they are great suggestions and not funny at all. A walking stick fits firmly into my office as normal for my job, and the one listed would just be a repurposed piece of equipment. It fits with my recreation also. I carry a gun in the woods off the clock, but a walking stick is useful for many reasons. The particular staff I listed, and have now ordered comes with a steel spear point on one end (meant to be planted in the ground and then a staff compass attached to navigate transects), and I think with a little modification would make a dandy fighting stick. After doing a bit of Googling on stick fighting I can see how folks would state that it is often more effective than a knife. I mean even after I trim it down a bit and modify this one I'll have an item that extends my reach quite a bit. That's really significant. Someone coming at you is going to have a hard time hurting you if you're swinging that at them, or in a life or death situation, actually trying to spear them with it.

    So I'm shifting my attention from training with a knife to finding a local instructor that incorporates sticks into self defense. I'm going to start there.

    Regarding a knife, I've gotten good suggestions on brands and types, and in a search for a stick trainer, will search for one who also trains with knives. Though I can certainly look for more than one trainer. I still think keeping one on hand would be a good idea in many situations, but it's too early to buy anything.
     
    Last edited: Oct 15, 2019
  24. TopJeff

    TopJeff Member

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    A.G. Russel might be worth a peek also!

    In that price point you should be well appointed!
     
  25. hso

    hso Moderator Staff Member

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    Look for Chinese and Japanese based schools working on short staff, cane, Jo, Bo, etc. as most likely to have the training you're after. Also look for bata, Baritsu, and other western stylea. Perhaps you have a ARMA or HACA group around?
     
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