Quality red dots seem to have too much ARC and polerizer for low light/HD use

[Arizona_Mike]

I was seeing if my Primary Arms MD-ADS would work for in an indoor HD setup. So far I am disappointed. The image is dark in low light (something I never noticed in daylight) and also you can barely see a red laser reflection through it. I wanted to use it for the 50k HR battery life and instant-on at last setting memory but I think I might be better off with a cheap but servicable red dot like a Burris TRS-25.

Mike

 

[sellersm]

I've found a sight like a Burris FastFire works better indoors. Something else to contemplate...

 

[Coal Dragger]

Why is this thread titled "quality red dots"?

The red dot being complained about by the OP is not of very good optical quality. Sorry but you get what you pay for, if you want long battery life, rugged construction, and good light transmission without excessive color distortion you probably need to look at an Aimpoint. I have an old Comp M2 and it is plenty useable in low light.

I've looked through cheap red dots and they generally suck.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

First of all I'm not "complaining". I'm trying to find a workable solution for a specific task.

I generally consider mid range red dots in the $170 range "quality". I'm not going to make any apologies for that.

Mike

 

[Arizona_Mike]

An Experiment

Adding prices because it apparently matters . . .

MD-ADS ($170) and MD-RBG II ($130) slightly dim room light but drastically reduce--almost eliminate laser reflection off a gloss white door.

MD-80 (~$80) and Bushnell TRS-25 (~$80--I would call these cheap but value. The ones I saw in the glass counter at Big 5 today were cheap at $35-$40.) have noticeably lower optical quality. The MD-80 attenuates the laser reflection but significantly less than the other two. The laser reflection is still bright and very noticeable.

The lesson is that if you want to be able to see laser reflection though a red dot it appears cheaper is better.

My $700 EXP3-2 (currently $670 MSRP) has zero edge color distortion (not something I notice unless I look for it). It also barely attenuates the laser light. It's ARC is green instead of red and is visibly much lighter/thinner. Interestingly it also has the light intensity attenuation over a much larger area.

My initial assumption that it is a coating that is blocking the laser light appears to be true. However it just dawned on me that the attenuation in room light for all but the two cheapest optics is being determined by the partial reflecting mirror, Which is why I am not seeing much difference between $130 and $700. An optic that does not use a mirror would be ideal for low light. And etched reticle optic would probably suit.

Mike

PS. I have a half dozen Fastfire IIIs between 3 and 8 MOA, they are all mounted to various handguns, carbines, and shotguns right now. Were not included in tonight's experiment. It might be a good choice esp with the auto intensity feature.

 

[hdwhit]

I have had very good service, so far, from this Red Dot that I purchased from CDNN:

https://www.cdnnsports.com/ncstar-gen-2-micro-red-dot.html?___SID=U

The adjustments are quite fidgety so it may take some time (and extra rounds) to get it set right, but once it is dialed-in, it has so far done okay.

 

[lobo9er]

i think you maybe going the wrong direction. If you are going to want better performance I would spend more not go cheap. especially if you want to use this to possibly defend your home. A bead is better than questionable circuitry. Just My 2 cents

 

[chicharrones]

I was seeing if my Primary Arms MD-ADS would work for in an indoor HD setup. So far I am disappointed. The image is dark in low light (something I never noticed in daylight) and also you can barely see a red laser reflection through it. I wanted to use it for the 50k HR battery life and instant-on at last setting memory but I think I might be better off with a cheap but servicable red dot like a Burris TRS-25.

Unless the TRS-25 is made differently now, it has a noticeable lens tint that makes seeing the target in low light a bit difficult. You'll need to find a red dot with almost zero lens tint in my opinion. Which will likely mean something with a strong LED to still be usable in daylight.

 

[chicharrones]

MD-ADS ($170) and MD-RBG II ($130) slightly dim room light but drastically reduce--almost eliminate laser reflection off a gloss white door.

MD-80 (~$80) and Bushnell TRS-25 (~$80--I would call these cheap but value. The ones I saw in the glass counter at Big 5 today were cheap at $35-$40.) have noticeably lower optical quality. The MD-80 attenuates the laser reflection but significantly less than the other two. The laser reflection is still bright and very noticeable.

The lesson is that if you want to be able to see laser reflection though a red dot it appears cheaper is better.

My $700 EXP3-2 (currently $670 MSRP) has zero edge color distortion (not something I notice unless I look for it). It also barely attenuates the laser light. It's ARC is green instead of red and is visibly much lighter/thinner. Interestingly it also has the light intensity attenuation over a much larger area.

In my experience, my long gone EOTech 517 was superb in low light compared to the tube type tinted lens red dots. The 517 had non-tinted glass (not counting anti reflection coatings) and had a great brightness range. The tinted tube types couldn't compare to the 517, and in some of them you can see a reflection of the LED mount in the tube. That LED mount reflection can be very distracting and even obscure a sizable viewing area through the tube.

 

[ny32182]

I haven't read the details, but I can observe that my Aimpoint Comp M3 has a filter on it that obviously removes red light from the image seen through the tube; I assume to make the red dot contrast better on any surface. I see this as an upside, not a downside. I would assume the cheapest units don't have the red filter.

Why would you want to have a visible laser and a red dot at the same time? Get rid of the laser, use the red dot as intended, maybe in conjunction with a flashlight if you anticipate it being very dark... problem solved.

 

[Rubber_Duck]

You should see the dot just fine if you are properly using your red dot sight with both eyes open so the clarity of the glass is irrelevant in low-light conditions.

I actually have a couple of Primary Arms red dot sights, one of them being the MD-ADS, as well as Aimpoints so I've compared them extensively. The Primary Arms sights do have a light blue tint when looking through the optic, but it's not a hindrance for daytime use IMO, and once I got used to it it's not noticeable anymore until I switch back to one of my Aimpoints. The Aimpoints are crystal clear when looking through the optic, no tint or color distortion whatsoever, great for turning the sight off and shooting with cowitnessed iron sights.

I bought the Primary Arms MD-ADS to try out the mini red dot concept before dropping the cash on an Aimpoint Micro but I've been so impressed with the PA knock-off that I never bothered to get the real Aimpoint. I simply upgraded to the American Defense Mfg. QD mount and called it done. I cannot think of a reason why the OP would find the sight lacking for low-light home defense use, it's a great sight and I highly recommend Primary Arms to people who want a "real optic" but can't spend more than $200.

I used Aimpoints in the military and my experience with them was the same. Excellent optics in every way, outstanding battery life and ruggedness, red dots just don't get any better than that. I had some limited experience with EOTechs and they were problematic.

 

[jmr40]

I've found a conventional 1-4X scope set on 1X to be superior to any dot sight in good or poor light. But particularly in poor light. Got rid of all of my dot sights several years ago.

 

[Walkalong]

I'll have to agree many red dots seem to be geared towards shooting in sunlight and don't do that well in shade etc.

I have a couple of Aimpoints and need to check them out in the shade. I shoot under the canopy of tall trees some and that will be a good place to check. My Nikon 3X scope is bright in the sun, but not so much under those trees. And it isn't all that shady there either. Looks like there would be plenty of light, but I can sure tell the difference in that scope. Of course it's a $125/$150 scope, so maybe a $300 offering with better glass & coatings would do better. I know a Nikon Monarch 5 is still bright there. I need to check something more in the middle.

 

[Arizona_Mike]

So I had an opportunity to check out a few Aimpoints today. Their >$700 micro red dot had the same partial reflective mirror inside which acted like a suncreen. It also has some of the worst edge color distortion I've ever seen. On their other hand their 30mm red dot optics were amazing! I think there are real limits to the micro form factor no matter the make or model.

Mike

 

[strambo]

I was just looking through the MD-ADS in low-light, both eyes open, and wouldn't have any problem with it for HD. My primary has an H1 and it is like cheating for low light shooting, so much so, I turned it off and used irons/weapon light during the low light portion of a carbine course just so the low light would actually be a factor. I got bored getting the same hits just as fast as daylight with the Aimpoint.

 

[redneck2]

Not sure if it's a red dot, or in your price range, but I have a Trijcon RX-30. I can easily see in my bedroom with a 4 watt night light only. It is awesome, but pretty pricey.

 

[LoonWulf]

Ive noticed that generally the non expensive red dots tend to do broad daylight conditions pretty well, but dont do as well when it gets darker. I do have a cheap simmons, that has adjustments low enough that it does fine in the dark, but its the only cheap one ive found that did.
My trs-25 is fine if there is some light, but if its completely dark, id most likely be shooting at unidentified targets. I leave some lights on in the house at night, and all my possible defensive guns have gunlights on them. When a targets illumined by a gun light the dot or target brightness thru the scope isnt an issue from what ive seen.

Ive handled but never owned or shot any of the more expensive options, but they seem to have less tinting, and better dot adjustability than the lower cost ones.