Red dots, Low light, Iron sights!

[Dr.Zubrato]

I'd like to know what experience you all have with the above combo!

My experience is that any red dot sight in night applications will wash out with a 200+ lumen light, WML or otherwise. Trying to adjust for the light makes for a much too bright dot at night.
I also noticed the iron sights pop out with a WML beautifully while also increasing your FOV.
Now my RDS has been removed from my HD carbine and I feel much better without it, however my troy folding BUIS have become my primary sights and I'll probably replace them with a fixed rear sight.

Would love to hear from guys with low light experience, I probably only have 3-5 hrs of night time training logged and half the time the moon illuminates the range like a searchlight.

 

[jmr40]

I got rid of my red dot sights too. I find a conventional, low powered scope to work better than either. Not really that much larger or heavier than dot sights either. The red dot jumps out at you, but you can't see the target in low light. With irons you can often see the target, but not the sights. Unless you are using some type of night sights, or if back lighting is just right.

I've gone to 1-4X20 scopes for all uses with a folding BUIS. On 1X they are faster than irons up close, and on 4X have enough magnification for ranges farther than I'll shoot. In low or poor light it is better than either dots or irons With a small, but powerful light attached to the rifle it will light up out to at least 100 yards in situations where there is zero light. I've used the light for coyote hunting.

 

[Inebriated]

Leave the dot on a higher setting and use the light to illuminate the target... I've never had a problem with that. If there's ambient light, then it takes less than a second to turn it down. If there isn't, then you need a light, and the issue of the dot being too bright becomes a non-issue.

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Thank you for the replies!
jmr40: I dont have glass yet, as this is a HD carbine and my distances will likely be no further than 25m max. Of course I shoot out to 400 and I wish I had glass though, that's huge fun!

inebriated:
I get what you're saying, but that hasn't worked well for me. Maybe it's because I dont have a better red dot like an aimpoint, but my red dot at the setting necessary causes red wash all over the sides of the tube.
Im not sure I could at any hour of the night turn on my red dot, and then have the wherewithall to fiddle with it, considering there's a NV setting which causes the dot to dissapear :/ (Vortex Sparc)
The scenario that I'm picturing is going from a situation of no/little light to switching on the room lights, and I really like the irons silhouette for any degree of light.

The big hole in my current setup is I only pick up my sights once I activate my light, where with a red dot you already have a sight picture before you turn on your light.
This is where I'm beginning to look at a tritium front sight post, seeing how well the tritium sights on my glock work.

Sorry if Im being a noob, I havent had formal night training, I'm just applying what I know to night time and trying to literally and figuratively find my way in the dark

 

[Steve in PA]

I just got back from a LEO Low Light/Night Fire Seminar. I have a 500 Lumen Surefire Fury on my AR along with an Aimpoint PRO. I had the PRO on a middle setting and there was no "washing out" and I could make out the target (steel plate) perfectly. In fact, about 17 out of 20 shooters ran some type of red dot along with a light. No one complained of wash out or had any difficulties seeing their targets.

 

[BCRider]

JMR is trying to tell you that the scope even on 1X works better than plain iron sights and even for close in use.

A 1-4X illuminated scope might be the ticket. If the reticle light is turned down to a low setting it's easily used in dim conditions without a light and won't wash out the view in the scope. But being that low when you light up the scene with a WML the reticle will appear black or a dull reddish black at most. So it's useable easily in either condition. And the illuminated reticle is faster to use than lining up two sights. So you can shoulder and sight up that much quicker and have more time to evaluate the next step.

 

[Inebriated]

I get what you're saying, but that hasn't worked well for me. Maybe it's because I dont have a better red dot like an aimpoint, but my red dot at the setting necessary causes red wash all over the sides of the tube.
Im not sure I could at any hour of the night turn on my red dot, and then have the wherewithall to fiddle with it, considering there's a NV setting which causes the dot to dissapear :/ (Vortex Sparc)
The scenario that I'm picturing is going from a situation of no/little light to switching on the room lights, and I really like the irons silhouette for any degree of light.

The big hole in my current setup is I only pick up my sights once I activate my light, where with a red dot you already have a sight picture before you turn on your light.
This is where I'm beginning to look at a tritium front sight post, seeing how well the tritium sights on my glock work.

The dot you use makes a big difference.

I have 4MOA Aimpoint H1's on my main defensive carbines. On setting 9 (out of 12), the dot is clear, but it isn't overbearing in a room with the lights on. And when I turn the white light on in a small room, the dot is still clear to sleepy eyes, and certainly not washed out. There's no red tint either until setting 11 and 12. Setting 8 is more subdued, and works fine in the same situations for awake, clear eyes. I just like the added brightness for when I just opened my eyes. Can't argue with 5 years of constant on, either.

As for irons... I have an XS front sight (the standard dot, not the big dot or post) on an AR, and it's nice, but it's not nearly as quick to pick up as a red dot in any situation, and if you don't have a tritium rear sight as well, you can easily be looking at it from above or even to the sides of the rear aperture in a dark environment... there's nothing to tell you you're seeing through the rear. The tritium itself shows up well with a hard front-sight focus when using one eye, but does nothing for a target focus at room distance with one or both eyes open. The big white circle is also easy to see in the day time, and it works fine with a white light, but again, you have to shut an eye and go hard front sight focus to get it. That is why I prefer the red dot. You can (and should) use both eyes open, you use a hard target focus, and it's just plain quicker.

 

[AK103K]

If you leave the front cover on the red dot closed (assuming you have one), you can set the dot to a lower setting, and it wont wash out when there is bright light.

You have to shoot with both eyes open for this to work. Its the same principle the early red dots (Armson OEG's) used, and it works well, day or night.

It solves the issue of moving from light to dark and vice versa in daylight hours too.

 

[henschman]

Sure irons are fine when you use the light, but what if you want to take a shot without the light? I don't have any problems with my Aimpoint PRO washing out with a 700 lumen light FWIW.

 

[TestPilot]

ItIt depends on the brightness setting of the red dot and the light. For the most part the washout was not a problem with beam from the light on the gun.

Night sight insert or white paint on the iron sights washes out easily. But, red dot, not so much. Iron sights themselves are quite usable with white lights.

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Thank you everyone for the awesome explanations and ideas!

I like the idea to leave on the scope cap, in conjunction with the light except that it takes out irons. I simply dont trust the Sparc enough to do this yet, though.
I appreciate the input, and experience from several posters!

I won't be investing in glass or a more expensive red dot sight anytime soon, though I will put down some cash for the XS tritium front sight post, eventually a daniel defense A1.5 sight, and possibly a tritium rear aperture.
Should I choose to build another carbine, I definitely want glass!

The goal is a lightweight KISS HD carbine I can take to tac classes.
I'm probably going to move my RDS to my 22 pistol and just enjoy plinking.

My RDS is not an aimpoint, I knew that going in but I've had situations already where the red dot intermittently cuts out and I had to pop up my irons. I just don't trust my Sparc for HD anymore, and for now the only batteries I want on my carbine is my light.

The tritium front sight post seems important in order to A. make ambient light shots and B. acquire the sight picture before using the light.

I love the fact I can just pick up the rifle and be GTG, no buttons or fiddling.

 

[strambo]

I just did some low light shooting at a course and had the opposite experience. It was so easy (weapon light on or not), I stopped using the dot and switched to irons for the training value in case the dot goes out. Using the RDS felt like cheating. Aimpoint H1 on setting 9 I believe and Surefire X300.

No way would I ever go back to no dot.

 

[briansmithwins]

If you actually need a rifle for social work, you won't be running around with the light on, so the red dot washing out isn't a problem.

Pop the light on target, ID the threat, light off, decide whether to shoot or not, fire (or not) and MOVE!

Walking around with a active white light tells everybody exactly where you are. I can see your light from way farther away than you can see me by using it.

BSW

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

Brian smith, I won't be doing any social work, and no one mentioned running around with the lights on.
The problem I mentioned was my red dot wasn't up to snuff, I wasn't able to properly view the target in AMBIENT light when adjusted for use with the weapons light.

Btw, off topic. Did you piss off John Willis from SOE? I think I heard your name on one of his rant videos..

 

[briansmithwins]

Brian smith, I won't be doing any social work, and no one mentioned running around with the lights on.

I haven't done that much spotlighting, so using a weapon light when not looking for 2 legged varmints isn't something I'm that familiar with.

John Willis isn't ringing any bells...

BSW

 

[Zach S]

I havent had any issues with the light washing the dot out, or the dot washing the target out. But I run fixed sights in absolute cowitness with my EOTech 552 so the transition from optics to irons and back is seamless. It could be that I never noticed something washing out.

I have a 9volt Surfire G3 on my 5.56, recently upgraded with a Malkoff lamp... I'll have to make a mental note to look for washout next time I can get it to the range and turn some lights off, especially with the brighter light.

And Brian Smith doesn't seem to be an uncommon name. I can think of four I've worked with throughout the years, and I think I went to school with another...

 

[Dr.Zubrato]

My bad Brian, just rang a bell on an SOE gear video and remembered seeing you around here.

I'm not pretending to be LEO/MIL/SWAT, and I don't know what you do for a living, but I certainly don't hunt "two legged varmints". I don't hunt animals, and I've just never hunted in my life, so I'm not a good hunter and have no idea where to start.
I do ,however, need a light to ID threats in my home. I'm not tier-0 but I know enough to maintain light discipline.

For those wondering what I mean by washout, the red dot in my Vortex Sparc is nearly invisible with a 300+ lumen light. When I adjust for a reasonable red dot intensity with the light on, in ambient light conditions there is a very bright red donut all around the inside of the tube, and the red dot looks like a starburst 4-5 MOA pattern rather than a dot.
This is why I took off my red dot sight, and I really like how well I'm able to pick up the irons with my light on, how much more field of view I have, and how light the rifle became.

I'm seeing you guys with Aimpoints/Eotechs don't have these problems, and I'm very glad to hear this, because someday I'll probably pickup an aimpoint, just not anytime soon. I'd rather shoot a rifle without a nice RDS, than play with my new aimpoint and empty magazines