Quandary - .17 Savage vs. 10/22 "Family gun"

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diesel83

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Got a bit of a quandary that I want to put out there. I am seeking a general "family gun" to teach my school age children riflery. We already have a single shot .22 Rossi rifle and a .22 Ruger 22/45 pistol, so we want to add another rimfire to the kit.

My eldest child loves the Ruger 10/22 (we shot a buddy's suppressed kit this weekend), but I am interested in a Savage 93R17-GV for tack driving. Obviously, .17 HMR isn't as cost effective as .22, but I think teaching with glass and a bolt action will yield better long term results. Any opinions out there? I have no experience with .17 HMR and see that the ballistics are attractive, but want to hear practical knowledge.
 
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Maybe

Hey there:
I just purchased 2 Savage 93 R 17s. I scoped them with Cabelas 17 cal. scope. These are pretty fair shooters. The one thing you need to know is they are high velocity and very flat shooters compared to your .22s.
There is a world of difference. No recoil. A little more noise, but not bad.
I bought these for varmint hunting around populated areas that we have been hunting. The .223 carrys too far for where we are calling coyotes.
That 17 will explode on any thing it hits to about 150 yards. After that they seem to get more penitration. They are flat. Zero at 100 and you are only .3" high at 75. That is flat.
8.5" drop at 200. The scopes from Cabelas seem to be right on with the 17 grain bullets from Hornady. By the way CCI makes all of these. Even the Hornadys. They use Hornadys bullets but CCI produces the ammo. CCI and the Hornady 17 grainers shoot the same.
I am not a Savage Fan. But must admit these two little guns shoot well. At 50 yards the holes all touch. I wanted a very light weight rifle and my son talked me into these. I was carrying my .223 PSS at 14LBS with the scope and Bi-pod. I'm too old for that and we have way to much snow this year to tote that kind of weight. I did have too remove some burrs on the bolts, and do some polishing to get them to smooth out. But they are fine now. The Accu-Triggers are OK but nothing to bragg about. Much better then Savage has ever had before though.
 
I'd start with a Marlin, Savage or CZ .22LR bolt gun with a decent scope, or the new Winchester Wildcat.

100 yards is pretty far away for a kid, and .22LR will do that just fine without breaking the bank.

I love my 22/45 Target. But I didn't care for my 10/22 and sold it. The two guns have nothing in common whatsoever.

If you want an inexpensive semi, get a Marlin 60. Out of the box, it shoots like a Ruger that's had a lot added to it. Trigger may need some tweaking, but it can be done for free. Mine is much more reliable than my Ruger was.

For all-out fun, get a Marlin 39. But keep that for yourself. My wife appreciates the 39 -- loves it, actually -- but kids haven't earned the right to use it yet.:)
 
Yes

Hey There :
The scopes were Cabelas Pine Ridge .17 Tacticals. 3x12 power. they also have a 6x18. But I have had too many close encounters in heavy brush with the coyotes for the 6x 18s. We chose the target DOTs. They are 1/4minute dots. The scope was very clear has a side focus and large taget knobs. The yardage is marked on the scope. Zero at 100 and you are done. I took a coon at 150 the other night and hit exactly where I aimed.The scopes are $129.00 in the cat. but go online and use the number for that scope and your cost will be $99.99. I bought 2. And may get 1 more. The scopes have settings to 300. Every 5 yards. They are clearly marked. The knobs are stiff so they don't turn from toting them around.So far I have had no problems with these. They said I have 1 year to return them if there is a problem.
No life time warranty but then They do not cost that much. This product # will get you the lower price, 71S-71-2531............
 
The rings.

Hey:
The rings. The mounts came on the rifle. I got the skinny barrel with composite stocks to keep the weight down. Anyway the mounts come on the gun, at least on these two . The weaver "wide" Not the .22 rim fire versions.
The low rings are too low. You will need the high rings. I like the scope as close to the barrel as I can get it. But the bolt won't open with the lows.
High 1" rings will put the scope 1.5" over the bore.
 
With a 10/22, you'll spend as much on ammo as with a 17. At least with my kids. They aim and shoot the 17, they spray and pray any 22 semi. Plus they like the fact that the 17 kills so much better, so much farthur away.
 
WElllll, I agreee with all the above; you can get a cz rifle, or order one in semiauto, and they will be super accurate, more so than any 22 you will proly ever shoot.
I love 17's, but only the mach2, becuase ammo is 1/3 the price, and you only lose 50 yds of trajectory from the 17hmr. The hmr ammo is just to much for plinking- fire 4 boxes amongst a few peeps, and you have just spent 60 bucks.
That would be 20 bucks for mach 2 ammo.
So really , how often will you shoot a year? with a 22, if you shot 10 times a year, that would be enough savings in ammo cost, to buy a brand new cz rifle, or with a mach 2 rifle, you would be close. I personally don't think of the hmr as a plinker, but if you do, more power to you, becuase, they will be dead on accurate out to 150 yds, and in a wind under 10 mph, will still be moa at 200 yds, with only about an 7 to 8 inch drop from 100 yds, with a 100 yds zero,
which , when you think about it, is quite amazing.
whatever scope you buy(Tasco varmint series, Barska, Weaver fixed power)
make sure it is at least 18 power, or you will never see the holes at 100 yds.
 
I have and 10/22,a cz452 fs 22lr,a savage 17hmr.The 17 hmr is more accurate at 100 yards,but the cz in 22 isn't too far behind.That,being said I have a cz 452 in 17 mach2 that should be here tomorrow.Right now you can get mach2 ammo for 149.99 per 2000 rounds on line.

My son likes blasting with 10/22,but when shooting golf balls etc..at 100 yards+the 17 comes out.At 50 yards the cz 22 is very,very accurate.

Oh,I forgot we bought a winchester wildcat awhile back in 22lr and it's close to the cz in accuracy but not nearly as refined.
 
Marlin's bolt guns are accurate and inexpensive.

I still question the .17HMR, though, unless you have a specific mission for it that involves varmints. It's almost as expensive in bulk as bulk .223 Remington (Cabela's prices used as reference). But you can reload the .223 and bring the price down if the kids really start shooting a bunch. The .17HMR? Gotta keep paying for factory ammo.

I mean, if you are looking for an excuse to buy a .17HMR, go for it. But if you're really looking for the best choice in a "family gun" I'd still consider something like a Howa in .223 for long-range shooting and/or a Marlin in .22LR for practice to 100 yards.
 
Good point ArmedBear. I already have .22 and .223 in inventory. Probably complicating things with a scope and expensive ammo. Where I live there's PLENTY of varmints to eradicate. I guess aside from the expense of the rifle, .223 in a bolt-action is a better way to go in terms of a true step-up over the long term. Savage and Marlin have some bolt-action packages to consider.
 
I don't think there's any point to a .17HMR without a scope. It's a tiny round that shoots tiny groups. You can literally shoot nickels at 100 yards if you want a challenge.

It lacks energy, though, and .22LR will hit anything you can see with irons, and plenty hard enough. .22WMR will hit it a lot harder, and bulk .22WMR is still much cheaper than .17HMR.

Lots of things do complicate this... It's an either-or-if-but thing!:)
 
there is a lot of confusion on energy of the 17's versus the 22's, let me make it simple, since speed of the mach 2 is double a 22lr, and the 17hmr is double the 22 mag, they retain more energy than either 22, once you pass about 75 yards. trajectory wise, they also cut the 22's arc in half or more, the 17hmr cuts a 22 mags arc by about 3/4ths. The best thing of the 17hmr is , if you need to kill varmints all the way out to 200 yds, it will do it like a lazer, and do it with about 20% of the sound of a 223. The mach 2 will do it out to 150 yds, with ammo being 1/3 of the cost of the hmr rounds.
the marlin 917 is excellent rifle for the money, it will shoot with a cz for the accuracy.
 
I already have the single shot, .22 break action with high-viz sights for basics. I am trying to figure out what's the right next step up (Bigger boom or more little booms). Iron sights or a scope.

ArmedBear pointed out that if I am considering .17 HMR, I might as well just go all out for .223 (I have a .223 autoloader in inventory) and reduce the logistics issue, especially if I am going to put a scope into the mix. 50 rounds of .17 HMR go for $13 prox around here with 50 rounds of .223 going for $22.00. 500 rounds of .22 go for $12. Might as well simplify my life. I guess the attractive price of .17 HMR rifles is what draws me to them.

All in all it comes down to:

1. Semi-Auto Repeater vs. Bolt repeater
2. .22 vs .17 HMR
3. Iron sights vs. Scope
4. .17 HMR vs. .223

Thanks for your attention.
 
they retain more energy than either 22, once you pass about 75 yards
Click to expand...

This is not true. A standard 40 grain JHP .22WMR has about 25 more ft-lb. left in it than a .17HMR at 100 yards. Since we're talking about around 130-170 ft-lb, 25 is a significant number.

if you need to kill varmints all the way out to 200 yds, it will do it like a lazer
Click to expand...

Sighted in at 100 yards, the fast and flat 17 Grain V-MAX .17HMR drops 8.5" by the time it gets to 200 yards. The 20 grainers drop more than a foot.

Now a .22WMR has dropped a lot more than that by 200 yards, but 8.5" or more will flat-out miss any varmint you're using a .17HMR on at that range (72 ft-lb left).

Yes, the .17HMR shoots flat, for a rimfire. But laser-like to 200 yards is an exaggeration. Serious p-dog hunters I know (600+ yards is their norm) have tried it and universally said it wasn't really good for all that much past 100 yards, as far as they were concerned.
 
I agree to some degree.

Hey there: ArmedBear, has a point . If you use a scope that you set at 100 and do not adjust. The scope I told you of can be set extremely close for the .17HMR at 200 yards. I took a coon at 150 the other night with pin point shot placement. The target knobs are made to use. I too shoot P-dogs at very long range with my .223 PSS. At ranges many say can't happen. They are wrong. 723 yards and 726 yards. 600 happens all the time. I am an extreme accuarcy nut. My 1-14 twist send a 55 gr. BT. way out there.
The faster twist barrels will loose at extreme ranges in that round. Any way.
The .17HMR is pricey to shoot. Cost is not an issue with me. It would introduce the kids to high velocity with out the worry of putting a round in the next county. One thing to keep in mind. Foot LBS energy may matter when hunting big game but even them numbers are just numbers. Shot placement is everything. And No I do not want to argue numbers with any one. Just making a statement that any real rifleman knows is the truth.
Many critters have fallen to the 22 rim fires and if we use ft, LBS energy as the rule, they never would have. The .300 win mag man just refuses to beleive a .223 could kill a deer , but it happens all the time. I would avoid the numbers game with guns in this class. A good rifleman with a good scope and the knowledge of how to use it and 200 plus yards is not a problem for the .17HMR.
 
The original question was about training his kids to be good marksmen. My son and daughter will be trained on my Savage 93R as soon as they can hold it steady.
 
WIth .22, you have less long-range appeal, but can afford to shoot x-many more times, and a bit quieter.

I am not trying to push it over any other gun, such as the highly regarded Czs, but I am very happy with a Savage .22 bolt action I have ("Mark II"? I think that's the only model designation on it, but it's not in front of me to check right now.), and it came with a cheesy but decent-enough little scope, I think a Simmons. $140 all told, in synthetic stock and stainless bull barrel.

timothy
 
If ammo price were also a factor, and kids learning accuracy. I would chose the 10/22, and the .17 later. If it is for shooting once in a while, then a 17. The 10/22 has many options and is a quality rifle. I do own a Savage 93r17 it is very accurate. Because of the ammo pricing, it is not used nearly as often as our .22s. Plus if you pick up the 10/22 now you can use the long range excuse to justify buying the .17 later.
 
With the expense of 17HMR ammo my 17V pretty much sits in the safe these days. I did not fire it at all last year. I would rather reload my .223s.

For a "family rifle" like you mentioned in your original post I would choose some type of 22lr. Does not have to be a 10/22. But if you want them to shoot more than a few rounds per range session I would go with a 22lr. A 100 rd range session with a 17HMR can cost you $25.
 
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