Question about California Hand Gun Laws...

[chargerx3]

So Ive got a dilemma, but im sure that you guys can help me out. Here is goes. Well my brother decides that he would like to buy me a hand gun this last Christmas. Both he and i do some research and narrow down the guns to a select few. It turns out that my sisters husband owns one of these guns and is looking to sell it. So my brother decides that he wants to purchase it and then gift it to me as a late present. I am a Cal resident. My bro is a Nevada resident with a Cal license (he doesn't want to change it), and my sisters husband is an Idaho resident. Can we do this?

I just want to make sure that i go about this the right way. I know that California laws are a pain in the ass, but I dont want to do anything illegal. Im worried that this might fall under the illegal "straw purchase". At the least i think im going to have to register the gun here in California within 30 days as mandated by the law.

Let me know what you guys know. Also feel free to post up links if they can help.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Your brother pays your brother in law.

Your brother in law sends the gun to your California FFL dealer and does the transfer there.

That's it.

I think the intra-family exception to the handgun roster doesn't include in-laws as "family" but since it is your sister's husband's gun, he can technically gift it to her off paper (Idaho doesn't have registration) and have her be the sender. Then it doesn't have to be on the roster.

This is NOT A STRAW PURCHASE! This is a gift. The way I outlined it above is the way to do it. Your brother pays your brother in law, your brother in law sends it to a California dealer and that dealer transfers it to you.

Because it is in two different states, the gun must transfer to you on a 4473. Have your dealer DROS it as a "intra-family" exemption if the gun isn't on the roster.

I ship a lot of guns to California and am familiar with the shipping system. Your BIL/sister does not need a shipping letter from the DOJ to send it, as non-FFLs (and C&R FFLs) are specifically exempted in the law. Most CA dealers will want a copy of his DL and a statement stating he is the lawful owner of the weapon and is transferring full ownership and rights to you.

PM me with where you live in CA. I have a ton of dealers I do business with. I'll tell you which one to use for this if I can.

 

[chargerx3]

I guess the dealer option is a viable one, but are there any other? I visit them frequently up in Idaho. Would it just pay to wait until i go back there and have him gift it to me there? Is that legal since im a Cal resident? Then when i get back here dont i have to register the gun within 30 days? I would much rather go this route then have to rely on a dealer and pay their processing fees.

Sorry about being a noob to gun laws.

 

[freakshow10mm]

No, you have to have a handgun transferred to you in California.

Actually, even long guns can only be transferred to you in California.

Federal law provides for long gun transfers to a non resident BUT both that state and the non resident's state's laws must be complied with. In order to comply with CA's laws, they need to run a DROS. Since only CA FFLs have access to DROS, the transfer to you cannot take place outside of CA.

 

[chargerx3]

So basically my only options are to be an Idaho resident, or DROS it through a dealer? I never thought it would be this complicated.

Do you mind explaining your previous acronyms? I dont know what DROS, FFL, BIL, C&R stand for. Thanks again for helping.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Dealer Record Of Sale, the state background check system thingie in California. Required with every sale I think. I'm not too up and up on the actual transfer paperwork, just the big stuff.

Federal Firearms License or Federal Firearms Licensee aka a dealer

Brother In Law

Curios and Relics; a collectors only type of FFL (see above) that allows you to collect guns older than 50 years old and some commemorative guns interstate without a background check. Just keep a log book. It's a license or collecting old guns, not dealing in them.

 

[brandnew]

I lived in CA for a while, and freakshow10mm has it right except for two things.

CA has a "safe handgun list" which are handguns that adhere to certain laws like loaded chamber indicator (what a joke), and a 25ft drop test and more things. They keep adding new mandates to this list every year to make your choices slimmer. Manufacturers have to pay a large fee and provide 3 pistols per model each year to stay on that list, which is why not all pistols available to the rest of the country are available to CA residents. It just costs too much to do this every single year and some of the things they require are things that would modify a pistols design too much to make it worth it, so some companies don't even bother submitting.

Even if your gun's model in stainless is on that list but the one you want is black, you can't have it. So you should go to this site and check if it's on the list:

http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

Second, you need to have a Handgun Safety Certificate. FFLs administer the bonehead multiple-choice test for $25 and if you pass with a score of like 85% or more, you will get a certificate that you must present every time you wish to get a pistol. The FFL will have materials for you to study up on before you take the test, but it's pretty close to NRA basic safety stuff. I decided to take my first basic handgun class before getting my HSC, and it helped a lot more than just my safety measures.

Hope this helps.

 

[TAB]

Do not ship mags over 10 rounds to CA... you won't get them and the person shiping them will be in deep do do.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Brandnew, you are wrong about the roster list. INTRA-FAMILY transfers are EXEMPT from the roster.

Read this first post here on Calguns complete with relevant Penal Code citations:

http://www.calguns.net/calgunforum/showthread.php?t=137527&highlight=intra+familial

I also didn't mention the HSC because the actual paperwork details I'm not versed on as I worry about how to get guns into CA, not what to do with them when they are there.

TAB is correct, but you won't get in trouble for shipping them there. They just need to be sent back out of state. It is legal to break the mags apart into components and ship them as rebuild kits. If they go out of state you can reassemble them into standard cap mags but not while in state.

 

[TAB]

TAB is correct, but you won't get in trouble for shipping them there.

no, the shiper will have commited a felony.

 

[freakshow10mm]

Under whose laws? CA? Get real.

 

[EOD Guy]

Brandnew, you are wrong about the roster list. INTRA-FAMILY transfers are EXEMPT from the roster.

California law does not allow intrafamily transfers between siblings. Such transfers are only allowed between parents and children and between grandparents and grandchildren.

The transfer discussed here must be made by a California dealer and the handgun must be on the approved roster.

 

[NavyLCDR]

Under whose laws? CA? Get real.

freakshow10mm is correct on that one. I, as a Washington resident, residing in Washington, ship a hi-cap magazine to California. NOBODY can prosecute me. The hi-cap magazine is legal in Washington. It is illegal for me to possess that magazine in California, if I am actually physically present in California at the time of possession, therefore under California jurisdiction. However, California state laws cannot cross state lines, so they can't into Washington and prosecute me for anything.

Just like if a California resident visits my house in Washington and walks out with the hi-cap magazine. No crime is committed there.

 

[NavyLCDR]

BTW, freakshow's method is the only way to do the transfer, the handgun must go from the Idaho resident to an FFL in the state of residence of the recipient. The FFL then transfers the handgun to the recipient just like if the recipient bought the gun from the dealer. This is to comply with 18 USC 922(a)(3) and (a)(5) - google Title 18 Chapter 44 to read it.

 

[TAB]

Don't be so sure about that... if you have FFL, the ATF will take it from you. Funny thing about the ATF, they also enforce state laws.

I tell you what, all you people that think its ok to ship mags >10 rounds to CA... I'll send you Arnolds home address... ship all of them you want there... see what happends.

 

[billwiese]

1.) I've lost track of the situation's relationship above but do remember that
'intrafamily transfer' exemption for Rostering only is applicable for lineal relatives: between grandparent, parent, child or grandchild. There are no 'sideways' or 'diagonal' direct transfers: transfers from siblings, uncles, etc. are not applicable.

2.) Someone above (NavyLT) was advocating violating CA laws outside of
CA's state lines, asserting he'd be immune:

NavyLT wrote:
However, California state laws cannot cross state lines, so they can't
[go] into Washington and prosecute me for anything.

Please stop saying that crap.

IT'S WRONG: YOU CANNOT STAND OUTSIDE A STATE AND RAIN IN ILLEGAL PRODUCTS OVER ITS STATE LINE. (Selling a hicap mag to a Californian outside CA is fine; shipping it to him into CA is a no-no.)

At best, if caught, you get a cease & desist letter; there may be civil (or, less often) criminal charges brought too. A warrant could even be issued for arrest.

This has repeatedly occurred in non-gun affairs: all sorts of issues in the past have existed for mail order shipment of wine/liquor between states, and there have been lotsa issues shipping aftermarket performance car parts into California as well.

Don't do it. I'm surprised this crap keeps coming up.


Bill Wiese
San Jose CA

 

[chargerx3]

So do these gifting laws only apply to California residents? Would it be the same if i were an Idaho resident?

Being that my brother is a Cal resident cant we just go to a FFL dealer and sell me the gun (since i can no longer be gifted it)? Im guessing ill still have to abide by the 10 day waiting period though right?

BTW The gun is a Walther P99 subcompact and has all the visible indicators, so Im sure its a legal gun here. And the clips are 10 rounds.

 

[NavyLCDR]

ANY transfer of a handgun between residents of different states, with the exception of a transfer by inheritance (when a family member dies), must occur at an FFL in the recipients state of residence. Gifts/purchases/family members - none of that matters. If the handgun changes hands between residents of different states, it must be transferred at an FFL in the recipients state of residence. It's Federal law, in Title 18 Chapter 44 Section 922, better known as 18 USC 922 sections (a)(3) and (a)(5).

Long gun transfers between residents of different states are the same, except that due to the exception in 922(b)(3), the transfer, in most cases, can take place at an FFL in either the recipient or the transferor's state of residence.

Google Title 44 Chapter 44, select the Cornell University link, then section 922.

 

[Quiet]

BTW The gun is a Walther P99 subcompact and has all the visible indicators, so Im sure its a legal gun here. And the clips are 10 rounds.

The "Walther P99 subcompact" is not on the CA DOJ approved list.


These are the Walther P99 that are currently on the list. http://certguns.doj.ca.gov/

P99 (Black) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 12/31/2009
P99 (Titanium Coated) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 10/1/2009
P99 AS / Steel and Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 9/30/2009
P99 Military (Green) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 6/14/2009
P99 QA / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 9/30/2009
P99 QA Military (Green) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 12/2/2009
P99 QA Titanium Coated / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 12/2/2009
P990 / Polymer, Steel Pistol 4.12" .40 S&W 1/2/2010
P99C QA / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.5" .40 S&W 1/18/2010
P99 QA (Desert Sand) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" .40 S&W 6/17/2009
P99 QA / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 9/30/2009
P99 QA Military (Green) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 12/2/2009
P99 QA Titanium Coated / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 12/2/2009
P990 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 12/31/2009
P99C QA / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.5" 9mm 11/12/2009
P99 (Black) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 12/31/2009
P99 (Titanium Coated) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 10/1/2009
P99 AS / Steel and Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 9/30/2009
P99 Military (Green) / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4" 9mm 6/14/2009
P99C AS / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.5" 9mm 11/22/2009
P99C DAO / Steel and Polymer Pistol 3.5" 9mm 5/5/2009

 

[bondmid003]

I'm a Marine officer stationed in San Diego (Florida resident), my dad transfering a gun to me should be fine if I understand the law correctly. Am I also correct that this doesn't have to be done via an FFL?

 

[NavyLCDR]

I'm a Marine officer stationed in San Diego (Florida resident), my dad transfering a gun to me should be fine if I understand the law correctly. Am I also correct that this doesn't have to be done via an FFL?

That depends completely upon your dad's state of residence, and your ACTUAL state of residence. They have to be the same in order to not need an FFL for the legal transfer of the firearm.

For the purpose of firearms transactions, are you an ACTUAL resident of Florida, or is Florida just your home of record and where your driver's license is from? According to the Code of Federal Regulations, residency for the purposes of firearms transactions requires two things: presence and intent. Residency is defined as presence in a state with the intent of making a home in that state. So, if you are not present in Florida or you do not intend to make a home in Florida then you are not actually, for firearms transactions purposes, a resident of Florida. The CFR also goes on to specifically state that an active duty military member is a resident of the state they are ordered to.

Unless you and your dad are residents of the same state, by Federal law, the gun must still go through an FFL to be transferred. If your dad is a resident of California, (or you both claim Florida residency) he could give you the gun without going through an FFL, then you would have to register the gun with the CA Department of Justice using their form and pay the import tax, which I think is like $19 per handgun - this registration and tax only applies to concealable firearms.

 

[bondmid003]

Both he and I are Florida residents as he was a Marine officer as well and still owns a home in Florida, I changed my residency to Florida when i moved down there for flight school.

 

[NavyLCDR]

If you meet the residency requirement for Florida as stated in 27 CFR 478.11

State of residence. The State in which
an individual resides. An individual resides
in a State if he or she is present in a State
with the intention of making a home in that
State. If an individual is on active duty as a
member of the Armed Forces, the individual's
State of residence is the State in
which his or her permanent duty station is
located.

then it would appear to be legal to obtain the handgun directly from your father who is also a Florida resident, bring that handgun with you to California, and file the following form in California with $19:
http://ag.ca.gov/firearms/forms/pdf/ab991frm.pdf

It should be noted, though, that according to 27CFR478, your driver's license and your declared home of record state have nothing to do with residency for firearms transactions purposes.

 

[bondmid003]

This all seems convoluted because members of the armed forces like ourselves are allowed to keep our state of residency whereever we want as long as we're on active duty

 

[NavyLCDR]

This all seems convoluted because members of the armed forces like ourselves are allowed to keep our state of residency whereever we want as long as we're on active duty

It's actually pretty easy, so long as you don't think about your driver's license or leave and earnings statements.

1. You can always buy guns in the state you are ordered to - with active duty ID card and orders for ID.

2. If the state where you sleep every night is different than the state in #1 above, you can buy firearms there too. But if that state is different than the state in #1, you have to be able to provide a state issued ID to an FFL to prove residency.

3. If you don't sleep regularly or work in a state, it is not legal for you to purchase handguns from anyone or long guns from private parties in that state, regardless of what ID you might have from that state.