Suppose someone whom we'll call John Doe legally buys a 38 special revolver from the local gun shop, and shoots me in the head with it as I'm walking down the street. It happens at night, and nobody witnesses it. Would the police be able to examine the bullet and determine that it was fired from John Doe's revolver?
question about how they solve gun crimes...
- Thread starter wa739
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Zundfolge
Member
No.
Not unless they suspected John Doe and got a court order to inspect his revolver and do ballistics testing on it.
Not unless they suspected John Doe and got a court order to inspect his revolver and do ballistics testing on it.
doc2rn
Member
Yes
The lans and grooves left as striations on the bullet are unique to each firearm. Also the twist rate can narrow it down to what type of firearm was used. Stippling will tell at what distance the victim was shot from and give and indicator on barrel length. Then the police comb through FFL's to see who has one. Next it's alibi time, and can we test your weapon. Don't forget about blood, it has done alot to convict felons.
The lans and grooves left as striations on the bullet are unique to each firearm. Also the twist rate can narrow it down to what type of firearm was used. Stippling will tell at what distance the victim was shot from and give and indicator on barrel length. Then the police comb through FFL's to see who has one. Next it's alibi time, and can we test your weapon. Don't forget about blood, it has done alot to convict felons.
Bobarino
member
case yes, bullet no. revolver doesn't eject the spent casing (we all knew that). the only way would be like Zundfolge says.
Bobby
Bobby
JesseL
Member
doc2rn said:
I see a few easily overlooked flaws in that plan that would be total show stoppers.
- Do local police have the authority (or time) to dig through all the local FFL's 4473s on that kind of fishing trip?
- I certainly wouldn't hand over my gun for ballistic testing without being compelled by a warrant. How tough is it gonna be to get a warrant for that, based on what looks like pretty thin circumstantial evidence?
- What is going to convince police to assume that the gun was purchased recently and locally?
sig226
Member
Provided there was enough of the bullet remaining to analyze, there are a few things they could determine from it. They can measure the caliber and weight, and examine the bullet design to see who made it. So they could tell if it was a Federal HydraShok, a Remington Golden Saber, or perhaps what brand of lead bullet most closely matched the lead alloy used.
Next, they can measure the number of grooves and their angle if there is enough of the bullet left to do this. While it will not identify a specific gun at this time, it will eliminate certain makes and models. They may be able to say that the gun was a Smith and Wesson K frame, as an example. There may be several models possible, since more than one model can have the same number of grooves and the same twist rate.
Once they have an idea what kind of gun was fired, they could ask the gun stores for permission to examine their records to see who bought one of these. If the FFL agrees to let them do it, they need no warrant.
If they find that a similar gun was sold to a person of interest in the case, they can go and ask this person to examine his gun. They can get a warrant to seize it and test it if they have sufficient evidence.
And somewhere in THR's archives is the story of a man whose pistol fired a shell casing found at a drive by shooting in New York State. The police matched the casing and the gun, then learned that the owner's permit was revoked, but they never collected his guns. So they went to his house and asked him where he kept the gun. He told them where he had stored and they went to look for it.
But it was gone!
When they returned to the man's house to confront him with this new fact, he told the police that he wanted to report a stolen handgun.
Next, they can measure the number of grooves and their angle if there is enough of the bullet left to do this. While it will not identify a specific gun at this time, it will eliminate certain makes and models. They may be able to say that the gun was a Smith and Wesson K frame, as an example. There may be several models possible, since more than one model can have the same number of grooves and the same twist rate.
Once they have an idea what kind of gun was fired, they could ask the gun stores for permission to examine their records to see who bought one of these. If the FFL agrees to let them do it, they need no warrant.
If they find that a similar gun was sold to a person of interest in the case, they can go and ask this person to examine his gun. They can get a warrant to seize it and test it if they have sufficient evidence.
And somewhere in THR's archives is the story of a man whose pistol fired a shell casing found at a drive by shooting in New York State. The police matched the casing and the gun, then learned that the owner's permit was revoked, but they never collected his guns. So they went to his house and asked him where he kept the gun. He told them where he had stored and they went to look for it.
But it was gone!
When they returned to the man's house to confront him with this new fact, he told the police that he wanted to report a stolen handgun.
sublimaze41
Member
Hmmmmm.... first post...... asking about gun crime....
Very unusual content for first post
Very unusual content for first post
Hkmp5sd
Member
As previously stated, something like this isn't going to happen. If they recover the firearm, they will do a "forward trace" and see who the gun was sold to. In states like CA, they can continue on down the line to see who the last "registered" owner was. But it is based on *if* they have the gun and knowing the last owner probably isn't going to help much unless the guy was stupid enough to use his registered firearm to kill someone.
In the real world, in the original scenerio, they would have no clue as to who owned the gun or where it came from based solely on the bullet recovered unless the bullet matched a previous crime.
siglite
Member
Yeah. Bells were ringing here too.
Pilgrim
Member
When the Washington DC 'snipers' were doing their thing, the police and BATFE did exactly that. They searched through 4473s for records of .223 caliber rifle sales, then they went to the purchasers and "asked" for the rifles to conduct ballistic testing. Most purchasers gave up their rifles because they "had nothing to hide".
Pilgrim
bogie
Member
Only possibly. In many cases the bullets are too deformed, and a revolver doesn't sling cases everywhere. Also, a LOT of cases are getting retried now, because an official in the testing lab at the FBI was lying about the accuracy of their tests regarding lead composition.
Really, however, the police are far more likely to apprehend someone based upon who they are, their motive, their opportunity, and their previous criminal activity. The phrase "gun crime" sorta gets me uptight - the tool is not committing a crime - the person is. If you're just curious, welcome. If you're trolling for reaction, well, please keep an open mind yourself.
Really, however, the police are far more likely to apprehend someone based upon who they are, their motive, their opportunity, and their previous criminal activity. The phrase "gun crime" sorta gets me uptight - the tool is not committing a crime - the person is. If you're just curious, welcome. If you're trolling for reaction, well, please keep an open mind yourself.
Hkmp5sd
Member
Mainly because that was a high profile case and law enforcement had to appear to be doing something with the thousands of cops running around in circles. As was proven, it was a glorious waste of time. They could have checked the 4473 of every .223 sold in the US, confiscated and tested them and they still would not have come up with the shooters.
It simply isn't going to happen in the average murder investigation.
+1
wa739: Welcome to THR. There are some things you should know about this forum. First, check out the link at the top right for forum rules. Second, this is not like a lot of other internet forums. Unlike many other forums, at The High Road we typically do not use "John Doe" or acronyms like "SWIM" (Someone Who Isn't Me) to ask about doing something illegal. We're law abiding citizens here and we don't concern ourselves with how one might be able to break the law.
As per your question: Yes. Every gun leaves it's own distinct ballistic fingerprint on bullets that exit it's barrel. I will venture to say that most shootings have a motive. If there are no witnesses to a shooting police will look for someone with a motive, someone who would've wanted to shoot the victim. "John Doe" will probobly be on their list of people who had a motive to shoot you. If, say, you were "John Doe's" employer and you had terminated him a week ago, the police will dig a little deeper. They will discover that "John Doe" recently purchased a .38 revolver. This association may be enough for the police to obtain a warrant to find his gun. They will compare the bullet retrieved from your head to a bullet that they test fire from the .38. The ballistic fingerprint will be a match. "John" will be charged with shooting you. "John" will (hopefully) spend the remainder of his life in a cage with a nice roommate named Bubba who thinks "John" is pretty.
jakemccoy
Member
Hi,
If such a shooting is written off as gang on gang violence (or similar), the police won't do any of the elaborate investigating discussed in this thread.
Regards,
Dr. Obvious
If such a shooting is written off as gang on gang violence (or similar), the police won't do any of the elaborate investigating discussed in this thread.
Regards,
Dr. Obvious
Gun Crimes?
I've seen enough CSI TV shows to know that the way to solve a gun crime is to question John Doe's gun without a lawyer present. After enough psychological manipulation and empathy they usually confess. Caliber envy is the root cause for these senseless acts.
We obviously need social programs for underprivileged guns to get bored-out to more impressive calibers. Free laser sight give-aways are also good for gun self esteem. Nothing lights up a gun-child's muzzle on Christmas morning like a laser sight.
I've seen enough CSI TV shows to know that the way to solve a gun crime is to question John Doe's gun without a lawyer present. After enough psychological manipulation and empathy they usually confess. Caliber envy is the root cause for these senseless acts.
We obviously need social programs for underprivileged guns to get bored-out to more impressive calibers. Free laser sight give-aways are also good for gun self esteem. Nothing lights up a gun-child's muzzle on Christmas morning like a laser sight.
ZeSpectre
Member
Note from real world experience, while it's true that you can (sometimes) get a ballistic fingerprint from a bullet, the only time anyone has the manpower to follow up on that is the extremely high profile cases (someone mentioned the DC snipers). Blood (and other fluids) is a completely different story and that trace info gets used a lot these days.
The thing about crimes is that the cops can screw up multiple times and still put together enough evidence to catch someone. The criminal only has to screw up once to hang him/herself. Right from the start the odds are severely against the criminal these days ESPECIALLY if the case becomes high profile.
highorder
Member
agreed. past identifying the caliber and bullet type, you can only suggest what type of firearm the bulley MAY have been fired from. past that, its old fashioned police work with motive, opportunity, and the rest. especially when it comes to mass produced firearmss like Glock/Sig/Beretta duty pistols, 1911's .38/.357 revolvers, AR and AK pattern rifles, etc.
unless the bore of a weapon has a unique flaw in it, you would be hard pressed to match a bullet/weapon conclusively.
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