I have some old powder that was my dads, it is likely 40 years old. It's in original containers always kept sealed and dry. I've got some 4198,4064,4831,H380 and 4895. Does it go bad? Have formulations of these powders changes over the years? And if they have how will they affect my loads? I'm loading some .223 with 55 gr bullets with 4895 for my 1-9 twist AR.
Question about old powder
- Thread starter Grassman
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Ifishsum
Member
Yes, powder can go bad. I personally have never run across bad powder but it's supposed to smell distinctly different than fresh powder, also sometimes yellow or orange discoloration on the granules. Stored correctly it can last a long time though.
As for changing formulations, that can also be a concern. I have a couple of older Lyman manuals, nice for referencing older cartridges and especially helpful when dealing with older powder. Here's what Lyman #46 (pub. 1982) lists for the .223 with IMR-4895 and 55gr jacketed:
IMR4895 Start load 23.0gr vel 2564 Max 26.0 (compressed) vel 3030
(no pressures given)
There is also a load listed there for IMR4064 if you're interested
As for changing formulations, that can also be a concern. I have a couple of older Lyman manuals, nice for referencing older cartridges and especially helpful when dealing with older powder. Here's what Lyman #46 (pub. 1982) lists for the .223 with IMR-4895 and 55gr jacketed:
IMR4895 Start load 23.0gr vel 2564 Max 26.0 (compressed) vel 3030
(no pressures given)
There is also a load listed there for IMR4064 if you're interested
hueyville
Member
Most of us have fired rounds dated in the 1940's & 1950's. Everyone I have went POP just fine. If the powder stored in the case, should store in the can. Be very careful though. Use mid power loads in cheap test guns and pull the trigger with a string. If they seem o.k. keep working carefully and burn through the older stuff first. I cracked open a "new" 5 pound can of Bullseye this year that I purchased in the mid 1980's. Loaded up 3 different calibers, got out the ransom rest and string. They were right on over the chronagraph. Once basic function test was done, been running though it like was made last month. Be smart.
hueyville
Member
Other common sense tests. Metal cans should not be terribly rusty. Cardboard should no be badly discoloured or coming apart. If it smells fishy it is. Only bad powder I ever had was a pound of 2400 that had been left sitting in a window for decades. U.V. light rotted the plastic top on can, humidity got in, stuff started changing vapor content with the season. Tried shooting it. Nothing bad happened but a few stuck bullets and nasty guns to clean.
FROGO207
Member
Well there are some threads on here as to what to look for. In general if they smell OK and not acidic, are not rust colored or have rust inside of the can they are most likely OK. A solvent smell is usually OK also. Then if they pass the sniff/sight testy you can try loading up a few to see if they work as advertised. Generally those on here agree you can use old propellant with new data and be reasonably safe but be cautioned against trying the opposite. I bet they will be OK for your needs unless the ammo is being put into storage for long periods. For that I would use the newest propellant I could get.
While your experience may differ from others, I've done a fair bit of reading on this subject over the years and have also a lot of direct experience with powder that's over 40 years old. I have a cabinet full of old powders from an estate I helped liquidate. The mid 60's Bullseye powder is just as good as anything new. If it looks OK and smells ok, just go ahead and work up some loads. I think using a string to test fire is going more than a bit overboard. I've never read about an old powder that didn't look and smell bad that had any issues at all with pressure. Heck, I shoot WWII vintage 30 M2 ammo all the time. It's good stuff.
ljnowell
Member
I have used powder that is 60 years old before. Worked great.
Yeah just cardboard no foil.
ljnowell
Member
Some of the old powder I inherited from an uncle was in cardboard containers like that. It worked just fine. Its all about storage.
TooManyToys
Member
- Joined
- Feb 12, 2011
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- 193
If the cardboard looks ok, the contents are probably ok too.
If it looks OK & smells OK, shoot it.
If it looks OK & smells OK, shoot it.
FROGO207
Member
The metal ones are newer from the 70's but the cardboard ones are a bit older but the contents are still OK I bet if they pass the sight and sniff test. BTW cool old propellant cans, some people collect those things as a sub hobby.
Whether powder is good is not easily answered unless the powder has gross indications of going bad.
The gross indications are the bitter smell due to NOx, red powder granules, fuming gas emissions, others have said “red gas”. By the time you see this the powder went bad a long time before.
Half of all the surplus IMR 4895 I purchased went bad.
The first 16 lbs, I used up eight pounds quickly. For whatever reason, I pulled the bullets on some of that stuff and found green corrosion on the bases of the bullets.
Similar to these pull down bullets from old US ammunition. Not the horrible one, but the small green spots.
I don't remember what US ammunition these came off, I pulled them decades ago, might have been WWII ammunition that came back from China.
The last eight pounds, it sat around. When I opened the bottle top, it smelled bitter. Red dust flew around.
I gave it to a machine gunner guy. He put it in the laundry room. Passing by the laundry room he tossed soiled shorts at the hamper, but missed. The short ended up on top of the powder bottle. Overnight, acid gas from the bottle ate holes in the shorts!!
This freaked my friend and he poured the stuff out over his lawn.
Since then I have had more surplus 4895 powder from a different vendor go bad in the case. Green corrosion on the bottom of the bullets and cracked case necks.
This powder never smelt bitter at all. I shot this powder in highpower matches and it shot exceptionally well, but case necks cracked after firing. I also received “funny” retorts and the occasional sticky extraction. The longer the ammunition sat around the more cases necks would split when fired. In time virtually all of the remaining 700 loaded cases experienced cracked case necks without the stresses of firing.
From what I had read on the internet, which is a repeat of what is said in gun magazines, powder has an “indefinite” shelf life. Remember reading statements to the effect that powder lost energy as it got old, making it essentially benign.
Then I ran into an Insensitive Munitions expert. This IM expert explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory.
Nitrocellulose decomposes through the reduction-oxidation process. Called Redox. The expert said “The molecular stability of the functional groups on the organic chain determine the life time of the nitrocellulose molecule.” All ionic compounds, water is the main offender because it is always in air, react with those bonds and accelerates the deterioration of the powder.
The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that wants to become a low energy molecule.
Heat accelerates the deterioration/decomposition of powder and the rate is directly proportional to the Arrhenius equation. If you read in the Insensitive munitions literature, you will see that they use high temperature to accelerate aging of smokeless propellants.
ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf
Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder
Combustion pressures will rise after high temperature storage.
INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT
Frankfort Arsenal 1962
3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance
To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.
Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.
Double based powders have a reduced lifetime compared with single base. Double based powders have nitroglycerin (NG) in the grain. Nitroglycerine remains a liquid and it migrates within the grain to react with the NO bonds on the nitrocellulose, increasing the rate of reduction-oxidation reaction. All ionic compounds react with those bonds and accelerate the deterioration of the powder. Rust is bad as ferric oxide is ionic. Water is polar covalent ion and is ever present in the air.
Because water reacts in a negative way with smokeless propellants, quality ammunition is manufactured in humidity controlled environments. Between 40% and 20% humidity. They don't go lower due to electro static discharge concerns.
The best storage condition for powders is arctic. Cold and dry.
Due to the migration of NG within double based powders, the surface of the grain will become rich in NG even though the total energy content of the propellant has decreased. This will cause changes in the burn rate, and can cause pressures to spike. The surface of nitrocellulose powders also change as the powder deteriorates, and it changes unevenly. This creates conditions for erratic burn rates. Burn rate instability is undesirable and can cause explosive conditions in firearms. In retrospect, this explains the “funny” retorts I experienced and the sticking cases. It is an extremely rare occurrence, but old ammunition has caused rifle Kabooms. When I discussed this with a machine gunner buddy, he said that explained the two top cover explosions he had with old Yugoslavian 8 MM ammo.
Section from the Propellant Management Guide:
Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.
As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.
NOx gas is a mix of compounds all of which are reactive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxide When smokeless propellants break down NOx gas is released. Nitric acid gas is only produced in the presence of water, because it requires a hydronimun ion, but there is plenty of water in air.
The Armed Forces have stockpile surveillance programs but each Service does theirs a little differently. If you want to see all the different tests the military uses to determine propellant characteristics, look at Mils Std 286 Propellants, Solid: Sampling, Examination and Testing to be found at https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/.
If you look, you will find aging tests. One common test is for powder to be kept at 65 C (150 F) until it fumes. It if fumes within 30 days it is checked for stabilizer or scrapped.
The Navy expert told me a few ways the Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by change of color of methly violet paper in contact with the powder (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.
Scrapping powders and propellants with this percentage of stabilizer appears to be consistent across all services.
Pages 5-11 of the 2003 Army Logistics Propellant Management Guide provide the protocols for testing and subsequent actions for their Stockpile Propellant Program. Basically, all propellant lots are tracked. The trigger for investigation is: "When Master Sample Stability Failure Occurs"
The Navy expert provided 'rules of thumb' concerning when to expect problems with double based and single based propellants. The rules of thumb are: Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years. In his words “These 'rules of thumb' are particularly useful when the protocol fails. The protocol can easily fail when workmanship or good housekeeping measures are not followed during manufacture of propellant and/or rocket motor or during storage of the weapon system components, respectively.”
For the home reloader, if the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits.
I am of the opinion that the reason this is not discussed in the popular gun press is because if the shooting community knew that powders had a shelf life, it might affect sales. As we all know, gunwriters are shills for the industry and for decades the shills have been reassuring us that as powder gets old, it becomes benign. I cannot see a reason why industry wants you, the shooter, to be picky about old powders and old ammunition. You might not buy, you might have reservations about buying. It is all about profits you know.
The gross indications are the bitter smell due to NOx, red powder granules, fuming gas emissions, others have said “red gas”. By the time you see this the powder went bad a long time before.
Half of all the surplus IMR 4895 I purchased went bad.
The first 16 lbs, I used up eight pounds quickly. For whatever reason, I pulled the bullets on some of that stuff and found green corrosion on the bases of the bullets.
Similar to these pull down bullets from old US ammunition. Not the horrible one, but the small green spots.
I don't remember what US ammunition these came off, I pulled them decades ago, might have been WWII ammunition that came back from China.
The last eight pounds, it sat around. When I opened the bottle top, it smelled bitter. Red dust flew around.
I gave it to a machine gunner guy. He put it in the laundry room. Passing by the laundry room he tossed soiled shorts at the hamper, but missed. The short ended up on top of the powder bottle. Overnight, acid gas from the bottle ate holes in the shorts!!
This freaked my friend and he poured the stuff out over his lawn.Since then I have had more surplus 4895 powder from a different vendor go bad in the case. Green corrosion on the bottom of the bullets and cracked case necks.
This powder never smelt bitter at all. I shot this powder in highpower matches and it shot exceptionally well, but case necks cracked after firing. I also received “funny” retorts and the occasional sticky extraction. The longer the ammunition sat around the more cases necks would split when fired. In time virtually all of the remaining 700 loaded cases experienced cracked case necks without the stresses of firing.
From what I had read on the internet, which is a repeat of what is said in gun magazines, powder has an “indefinite” shelf life. Remember reading statements to the effect that powder lost energy as it got old, making it essentially benign.
Then I ran into an Insensitive Munitions expert. This IM expert explained that powder deteriorates from the day it leaves the factory.
Nitrocellulose decomposes through the reduction-oxidation process. Called Redox. The expert said “The molecular stability of the functional groups on the organic chain determine the life time of the nitrocellulose molecule.” All ionic compounds, water is the main offender because it is always in air, react with those bonds and accelerates the deterioration of the powder.
The bottom line is that nitrocellulose is a high energy molecule that wants to become a low energy molecule.
Heat accelerates the deterioration/decomposition of powder and the rate is directly proportional to the Arrhenius equation. If you read in the Insensitive munitions literature, you will see that they use high temperature to accelerate aging of smokeless propellants.
ROLE OF DIPHENYLAMINE AS A STABILIZER IN PROPELLANTS;
ANALYTICAL CHEMISTRY OF DIPHENYLAMINE IN PROPELLANTS
http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/783499.pdf
Heat, as you can see in the report, will age gunpowder
Combustion pressures will rise after high temperature storage.
INVESTIGATION OF THE BALLISTIC AND CHEMICAL STABILITY OF 7.62MM AMMUNITION LOADED WITH BALL AND IMR PROPELLANT
Frankfort Arsenal 1962
3. Effects of Accelerated Storage Propellant and Primer Performance
To determine the effect of accelerated isothermal storage upon propellant and primer performance, sixty cartridges from each of lots E (WC 846) and G (R 1475) were removed from 150F storage after 26 and 42 weeks, respectively. The bullets were then removed from half the cartridges of each lot and from an equal number of each lot previously stored at 70F. The propellants were then interchanged, the bullets re-inserted, and the cases recrimped. Thus, four variations of stored components were obtained with each lot.
Chamber pressures yielded by ammunition incorporating these four variations were as follows. These values represent averages of 20 firings.
Double based powders have a reduced lifetime compared with single base. Double based powders have nitroglycerin (NG) in the grain. Nitroglycerine remains a liquid and it migrates within the grain to react with the NO bonds on the nitrocellulose, increasing the rate of reduction-oxidation reaction. All ionic compounds react with those bonds and accelerate the deterioration of the powder. Rust is bad as ferric oxide is ionic. Water is polar covalent ion and is ever present in the air.
Because water reacts in a negative way with smokeless propellants, quality ammunition is manufactured in humidity controlled environments. Between 40% and 20% humidity. They don't go lower due to electro static discharge concerns.
The best storage condition for powders is arctic. Cold and dry.
Due to the migration of NG within double based powders, the surface of the grain will become rich in NG even though the total energy content of the propellant has decreased. This will cause changes in the burn rate, and can cause pressures to spike. The surface of nitrocellulose powders also change as the powder deteriorates, and it changes unevenly. This creates conditions for erratic burn rates. Burn rate instability is undesirable and can cause explosive conditions in firearms. In retrospect, this explains the “funny” retorts I experienced and the sticking cases. It is an extremely rare occurrence, but old ammunition has caused rifle Kabooms. When I discussed this with a machine gunner buddy, he said that explained the two top cover explosions he had with old Yugoslavian 8 MM ammo.
Section from the Propellant Management Guide:
Stabilizers are chemical ingredients added to propellant at time of manufacture to
decrease the rate of propellant degradation and reduce the probability of auto ignition during its expected useful life.
As nitrocellulose-based propellants decompose, they release nitrogen oxides. If the nitrogen oxides are left free to react in the propellant, they can react with the nitrate ester, causing further decomposition and additional release of nitrogen oxides. The reaction between the nitrate ester and the nitrogen oxides is exothermic (i.e., the reaction produces heat). Heat increases the rate of propellant decomposition. More importantly, the exothermic nature of the reaction creates a problem if sufficient heat is generated to initiate combustion. Chemical additives, referred to as stabilizers, are added to propellant formulations to react with free nitrogen oxides to prevent their attack on the nitrate esters in the propellant. The stabilizers are scavengers that act rather like sponges, and once they become “saturated” they are no longer able to remove nitrogen oxides from the propellant. Self-heating of the propellant can occur unabated at the “saturation” point without the ameliorating effect of the stabilizer. Once begun, the self-heating may become sufficient to cause auto ignition.
NOx gas is a mix of compounds all of which are reactive. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/NOx http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nitrogen_oxide When smokeless propellants break down NOx gas is released. Nitric acid gas is only produced in the presence of water, because it requires a hydronimun ion, but there is plenty of water in air.
The Armed Forces have stockpile surveillance programs but each Service does theirs a little differently. If you want to see all the different tests the military uses to determine propellant characteristics, look at Mils Std 286 Propellants, Solid: Sampling, Examination and Testing to be found at https://assist.daps.dla.mil/quicksearch/.
If you look, you will find aging tests. One common test is for powder to be kept at 65 C (150 F) until it fumes. It if fumes within 30 days it is checked for stabilizer or scrapped.
The Navy expert told me a few ways the Navy samples its powders and propellants. If the powder is outgassing nitric gas (as determined by change of color of methly violet paper in contact with the powder (Methly Violet test, or Talliani test)), the stuff is tested to see how much stabilizer is left. If the amount is less than or equal to 20%, the lot is scrapped.
Scrapping powders and propellants with this percentage of stabilizer appears to be consistent across all services.
Pages 5-11 of the 2003 Army Logistics Propellant Management Guide provide the protocols for testing and subsequent actions for their Stockpile Propellant Program. Basically, all propellant lots are tracked. The trigger for investigation is: "When Master Sample Stability Failure Occurs"
The Navy expert provided 'rules of thumb' concerning when to expect problems with double based and single based propellants. The rules of thumb are: Double based powders and ammunition are scrapped at 20 years, single based 45 years. In his words “These 'rules of thumb' are particularly useful when the protocol fails. The protocol can easily fail when workmanship or good housekeeping measures are not followed during manufacture of propellant and/or rocket motor or during storage of the weapon system components, respectively.”
For the home reloader, if the powder has turned red, or smells like acid, it is way beyond its safe limits.
I am of the opinion that the reason this is not discussed in the popular gun press is because if the shooting community knew that powders had a shelf life, it might affect sales. As we all know, gunwriters are shills for the industry and for decades the shills have been reassuring us that as powder gets old, it becomes benign. I cannot see a reason why industry wants you, the shooter, to be picky about old powders and old ammunition. You might not buy, you might have reservations about buying. It is all about profits you know.
hueyville
Member
Slamfire1, Thanx for the link to the powder research. I had planned on looking for that 2day in my book case with gun information. Now all I have to do is bookmark that link and never look for it again. I have acquired so much printed information it is almost useless due to difficulties of searching through it. If I ever retire what I can't find posted on the web, I want to scan so can post it. Afraid lots of good info will be lost to the world if we don't start doing this and grand kids just roll all our piles of paper into the dumpster.
old powder
While I don't dispute what Slamfire has to say, I have shot some Unique powder that was produced before 1900. No, that is not a typo. I have used other really old powders as well, and they all worked as specified.
So long as there are no signs of deterioration, like red dust or a very distinctive acidic smell, use it up and enjoy.
Store in a cool dry place, as they say.
While I don't dispute what Slamfire has to say, I have shot some Unique powder that was produced before 1900. No, that is not a typo. I have used other really old powders as well, and they all worked as specified.
So long as there are no signs of deterioration, like red dust or a very distinctive acidic smell, use it up and enjoy.
Store in a cool dry place, as they say.
Yeah I think I'll keep those old containers for a little bench decoration after the powder it gone.The metal ones are newer from the 70's but the cardboard ones are a bit older but the contents are still OK I bet if they pass the sight and sniff test. BTW cool old propellant cans, some people collect those things as a sub hobby.
ljnowell
Member
I concur.
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