Question about so many calibers?

[borrowedtime69]

So, I've been shooting and hunting since i was 12, so, 40 years, I've tried to learn as much as i can about both. but in all those years, it didn't occur to me to ask one question I've never heard addressed before:

Why are there so many different calibers, and so many in oddball sizes, for rifle, and to a lesser degree handguns?

i didnt really hook onto this question till i looked up the Wikipedia page listing every centerfire caliber. There runs the gambit of every .20 caliber , hitting each size stepping up 1/100ths to 1,000ths of an inch at a time, the .30 calibers are almost as fully covered by each increment of 1/100 to 1/1,000 of an inch.

and, as an example, if a .380, 9mm, .38, & .357can all be shot from the same barrel (i may be wrong about the .380?) why so many diameters? I realize that there needs to be a designation for the amount of powder/length of cartridge, so why haven't there been designations such as, the caliber (diameter) then length of the cartridge such as the 7.62X39, 7.62X51, & 7.62X54, etc. in the SAE sizes?

i would guess the answer would probably lie somewhere in the 1800's or so when cartridges were first being developed? Also, i know that a LOT of wildcatting has been done through the years to bring about all these calibers measured so close together. Is there some magic formula that requires a certain caliber bullet must be used with a certain amount of powder so it can travel down the barrel without sticking or slowing due to burn times?

or is it just unfathomable and i shouldn't stay up nights wondering? LOL ! Thanks guys!

 

[mcb]

Variety is the spice of life.

Most of those cartridge were designed with any number of a larger and wildly different variety of end goals in mind. Whether that be range, energy, velocity, fit in a particular length/diameter case, fit in an existing firearm, tailored for a specific activity or use, (ie military, LEO, hunting, compeittion etc). There are a ton of different reasons various cartridges were invented. Some of them are pretty straight forward and some of them have wild backstories on how a particular cartridge ended up were it did.

 

[.308 Norma]

as an example, if a .380, 9mm, .38, & .357can all be shot from the same barrel (i may be wrong about the .380?) why so many diameters?

I might not be understanding exactly what you're asking, borrowedtime69. The ".380, 9mm, .38 & .357" bullets can all be shot through the same barrel because they are all the same diameter - approximately.
Note, I said the .380, 9mm, .38 & .357 "bullets" are all the same diameter - approximately. The .380, 9mm, .38 & .357 are all different cartridges.

 

[entropy]

and, as an example, if a .380, 9mm, .38, & .357can all be shot from the same barrel (i may be wrong about the .380?) why so many diameters?

No, they cannot, unless there are different chambers for that barrel. That's only practically possible with certain revolvers, (and I'm guessing this is where you are getting your example of this) and 9mm Luger, .38 Spl. (and its direct predecessors, .38 Colt & Long) and .357. The Ruger Blackhawk with the additional cylinder in 9mm comes to mind. There are limitations to this, and it's not very practical.

 

[beag_nut]

Part of the reason for the variety is that MANY calibers and cartridges were invented/developed over time. And many did not simply disappear because the firearms they were developed for are still around. Owners of those guns still want to be able to shoot them. Thus, some round invented around 1900 was useful and relevant for the time, but perhaps 30 years later a newer round was developed which was much better. But owners using the first round still want to be able to use their gun. So the earlier round has not disappeared, though it may be difficult to obtain (but not impossible).

 

[Agsalaska]

First, everything beag_nut said.

Second, Capitalism.

 

[Slamfire]

Why are there so many different calibers, and so many in oddball sizes, for rifle, and to a lesser degree handguns?

Military cartridges reflect the doctrines of their time. The first smokeless military cartridges, they really, really thought that their troops would be shooting at advancing men at extreme ranges.



Just take a look at the rear sight of a M1903. The powers that be expected American troops to volley fire at 2500 yards! The battle sight was zero’s at 500 yards!



It did not help that when the British engaged the Boers, many of the Boers were expert shots at long range, and caused a lot of casualties with their 7mm Mausers, and the average Tommy could not hit the berm from which the Boer was hiding. A word of advice from the times was “stay away from Officer’s and white rocks!”

While the Swiss K31 rear could be zero’d at 200 yards, they were still thinking of shooting at things at 1500 yards. The previous rifle, the K11, the rear sight lowest setting was 400 yards. So the Americans were not the only ones thinking of extreme long range rifle fire.



Military cartridges were developed around a number of criteria. Think zero space, recoil, lethality at distance, combat load, etc. I don’t think barrel life was a consideration. Depending on the weighting of these criteria, you end up with military cartridges between the 6.5 Carcano and the 8 mm Mauser, with the 8mm Mauser being an early smokeless military cartridge, and particularly well designed for its era. The largest honker I am aware of, as a service rifle cartridge, is the 8 X 63 Swedish, and the recoil with that must have been brutal. But, the thought process behind a military cartridge was a detailed process, usually involved a lot of testing and trading of parameters.

Notice, no 416 Rigby’s or 460 Tranasaurus Rex cartridges as military cartridges.

Post WW2, everyone threw in the towel eventually and gave up believing their troops could hit anything at or beyond 300 yards. Sure, the pre war troops marksmanship was good, but they were all chopped meat before 9 months was out, and replacements called themselves “cannon fodder”. Sammy, our last living WW2 Veteran had 20 rounds of familiarization before being second wave at Iwo Jima. Sammy always believed if his Dad had not taught him how to shoot, he would have never have come back alive. My Uncle, 101 Airbourne, dropped into Normandy with just 8 rounds of familiarization with his 1919 machine gun. He could salute and march in formation with the best, but there just was not enough time to turn these guys into good shots. At the peak of the war, the US was experiencing 60,000 causalities at month, 20,000 of these dead, and the other in various states of disassembly. Believe it or not, we did not have enough bodies to conquer Japan, based on the losses we experienced at Iwo Jima. A big reason they used the bomb.

So post WW2, what you find are new military cartridges of lesser power and range than pre WW2 cartridges. Which were all hold overs from WW1.

Commercial cartridges are not the result of careful analysis of parameters, nor do they show any logic other than maximizing the profits of the corporation introducing them. Each cartridge was rolled out with noises greater than that of the Archangel's trumpet at the second coming of Christ. And of course, each cartridge was sold as filling an essential need. The gap of which between existing cartridges greater than the Grand Canyon. If you go through the book Cartridges of the World, which is the size of an old city phone book, you observe differences between cartridges are infinitesimally small within their respective “groups”. Of course there are the rounds guaranteed to knock a dinosaur on his butt. Lots of dinos roaming those woods!

There have been so many cartridge introductions that for rifles, as an example, the gunwriter’s have a clear set of selling points and procedures which we all have read again and again. The current craze is accuracy at extreme range, so similar what Jack O'Connor wrote in his day: kinetic energy is equated as lethality, bullet drop at range is emphasized, but instead of distances between 400 and 600 yards, the wonder cartridges are touted for shooting critters at 1500 yards! Unlike the bullets of yore, ballistic coefficients are perhaps the greatest selling point. Drift at 600 yards was used as an example of the superiority of modern bullets. The comparison was one inch of bullet drift less at 600 yards than the old bullet. This works when the buyer is clueless about the magnitude of wind movement that happens at distance, the absolute inability to measure wind speed and direction, even on "good days", and that the wind is totally unpredictable. Wind speed and direction are neither uniform nor linear. I have looked at the 600 yard target, the flags, the mirage, rolled over, fired a shot, only to find between scoping, a fishtail pickup happened and the bullet moved out in the eight ring, about three feet! There is a reason target shooters get sighting sights, something hunters don't get.

Today’s cartridges are being sold based on tiny differences as throat freebore. A whole crop of them has recently been introduced in the 277 caliber. Some so dimensionally close to one another, you can’t tell which is which in the picture!

If the manufacturer can get you to buy the latest and greatest cartridge, then a train load of money is following. New dies, new bullets, new brass, new trimmers, new powder funnels, new case holders, just think of all the junk you buy with a new caliber. It adds up to a lot of profit.

Product development cycles shorten every year. Manufacturers are frantically throwing cartridges against the wall, like jello, hoping that some of the fusillade will stick. And then, next year, today's greatest and latest cartridge will be old hat. Take as an example, the 270 WSM and the 6.8 Western. Hardly any difference between the two, the differences primarily created to give the appearance that the 6.8 is a new cartridge. Oh the 270 WSM was good in its time, but now, so obsolete. And, you have to have a new rifle to go with it.

 

[bdickens]

Why so many different cartridges?
Because.

 

[Archie]

Many known cartridges are merely 'variations' on an existing (sometimes LONG existing) cartridge. F'instance, the .280 Remington (aka 7mm-06 aka 7mm Express) and the 7mm-08 are essentially 'updated' versions of the 7x57mm Mauser- from 1892. The 'updated' versions provide more powder capacity or are chambered in 'stronger' actions, but they're not all that better at getting game than the original. The same story is found in many other cartridges as well.

Calibers or bore sizes are descendant from nature of use and black powder tradition. .223 caliber is based on light game or the desire for light recoil. .458 rifles are based on stopping what is going to eat one and just deal with the recoil.

Keep in mind various nations and cultures have different systems of measure. ".30 caliber" sounds good in the Imperial system nations, but "7.62mm" probably sounds odd to one used to the metric system. In reverse, ".284 caliber" might sound screwy to 'us' but "7mm" is pretty logical to a European. Same concept applies to bullet weights.

In my rather suspicious mind, the proliferation of calibers and cartridges in the current space-time results from many folk wanting their name (personal or brand) on something. As case in point, the 6.5mm Creedmore and the .260 Remington are both the same caliber, and based on the .308 Winchester cartridge case. (Look and compare the schematics of each in a loading manual.) The difference is subtle. The angles of the shoulder and neck are different and the Creedmore case is shortened a bit. One has Remington's name and the other is Creedmore. Be first on your block!

Look at the history of various cartridges. You'll find many examples of baby-snatching, various forms of envy and more than a little incest in the cartridge/caliber world.

 

[jmr40]

Not counting 22 rimfire I could get buy with 2 different handgun cartridges in 2 different calibers. Same with rifle cartridges and calibers, I can do everything I need to do with 2. I don't NEED anything but 12 ga shotguns, but different guns or barrels would be needed.

The $64,000 question is which 2. And you'd have a hard time finding 2 guys out of 100 who would choose the same 2 handgun and rifle cartridges.

You have to go back to black powder and round ball projectiles to understand. At that time all rifles using black powder pretty much shot to the same velocity regardless of caliber. And with round balls the only way to get a heavier bullet was to increase bore size.

Going to conical bullets was a game changer. Now you could go with a longer bullet to get the weight needed while staying with a smaller caliber.

Smokeless powder was the next game changer. Now you could use even smaller caliber rifles and get much more velocity. But bullet technology didn't catch up for several decades so there was still a need to stay with relatively larger calibers.

And then you have dozens of rifle and cartridge designers working independently on putting together the perfect combination. There is a bunch of overlap in performance. There is no practical reason for 90% of the rifle and handgun cartridges to exist anymore, but which 10% are we going to keep. Plus the guns are still out there and people want to buy ammo for grandpa's gun.

 

[.308 Norma]

Why are there so many different calibers, and so many in oddball sizes, for rifle, and to a lesser degree handguns?

I'm still not understanding the question, borrowedtime69. I only counted 15 or 16 different calibers in the new Speer Manual (#15) I have sitting in front of me, yet there are almost 900 different cartridges listed in my "Cartridges of the World" book. And seeing as how my "Cartridges of the World" book is a 2000 edition, there's probably about a hundred more cartridges invented since it was published.

 

[Slamfire]

I'm still not understanding the question, borrowedtime69. I only counted 15 or 16 different calibers in the new Speer Manual (#15) I have sitting in front of me, yet there are almost 900 different cartridges listed in my "Cartridges of the World" book. And seeing as how my "Cartridges of the World" book is a 2000 edition, there's probably about a hundred more cartridges invented since it was published.

Cartridges of the World ought to be updated quarterly.

 

[Ranger99]

Variety is the spice of life.

Most of those cartridge were designed with any number of a larger and wildly different variety of end goals in mind. Whether that be range, energy, velocity, fit in a particular length/diameter case, fit in an existing firearm, tailored for a specific activity or use, (ie military, LEO, hunting, compeittion etc). There are a ton of different reasons various cartridges were invented. Some of them are pretty straight forward and some of them have wild backstories on how a particular cartridge ended up were it did.

Pretty much it ^ ^
That, and many many many people
like to follow trends and fads.
Whatever they had for years might be
perfectly adequate and suited to their
needs, but the pull of something "new"
and different is too strong.
And a good job by the marketing departments

 

[Slamfire]

Pretty much it ^ ^
That, and many many many people
like to follow trends and fads.
Whatever they had for years might be
perfectly adequate and suited to their
needs, but the pull of something "new"
and different is too strong.
And a good job by the marketing departments

In terms of the "big picture" the environmental impact of fashion is huge. Our economy is based on increasing consumption, and planned obsolescence forces us to toss out perfectly operable electronic devices. Our major appliances can't be repaired and are designed to fail in five to seven years. And we love it. Landfills and the ocean is full of our junk. You don't really own anything any more, you rent your devices, appliances, and your domicile. Won't be long, the same will happen to your firearms.

And then you.

 

[lysanderxiii]

. . . and, as an example, if a .380, 9mm, .38, & .357can all be shot from the same barrel (i may be wrong about the .380?) why so many diameters?

.380 ACP (aka 9mm Kurtz) = .355" dia bullet
9mm Parabellum (and a host of other "9mm" cartridges) = .355" dia bullet
.38 ACP & .38 Super = .356" dia bullet
.38 Spl (.38 Colt) = .357" dia bullet
.357 Magnum = .357" dia bullet
.38 S&W = .360" dia bullet
9mm Makarov = .364" dia bullet

Yes, there are a lot of different bullet diameters, but they really cannot be fired from the same bore, as you can see the bullet diameters are sometimes too different.

As to why Georg Luger and John M. Browning, chose 9.02mm for the diameter of their "9mm" bullets and Nikolay Makarov chose 9.25mm for his "9mm" bullet, because each though their selected size was best for cartridge performance, ease and inexpense of manufacture of bullets and barrel bores and probably a number of other personal reasons lost to time.

Why .38 Spl, and .38 Colt and .357 Magnum are .357", and .38 S&W is .360" has to do with how cartridges evolved from cap and ball revolvers. A Colt Belt Model (or "Navy") had a bore diameter of .360", and land and cylinder bore diameter of .375" and used a bullet .380" in diameter (the larger bullet diameter was to create a good seal and prevent flash-over).

When cartridges came out the wall thickness of the cylinder could not be decreased, so the cylinder bore remained the same and a heeled bullet was used. Since heeled are not a practical as inside lubricated bullets, there was a general shift to cartridges with inside lubricated bullets, with the newer purpose built cartridge revolvers. In order the handle the shift, the case could remain the same diameter and reduce the bullet diameter to fit inside the case (.38 Colt) or the case could be made bigger and the bullet remain the same (.38 S&W).

Generally speaking is is cheaper to keep the case diameter the same, and this keeps the cylinder bore the same an the cylinder design itself can reused. And since designing the lock-work to properly time a cylinder is an interesting 3-D puzzle, it saves time to keep the cylinder lock-work. S&W was in the middle of designing something completely different and had to redesign the cylinder lock-work anyway so they kept the bore diameter.

 

[tactikel]

Sales ($$). Having a Proprietary cartridge gives you a monopoly. Marketing creates demand, sales create profits.

 

[.308 Norma]

Yes, there are a lot of different bullet diameters, but they really cannot be fired from the same bore, as you can see the bullet diameters are sometimes too different.

"Sometimes" must be the key word there, lysanderxiii - because Ruger has built thousands upon thousands of those Ruger Blackhawks that come with both a 9mm cylinder and a .357 Magnum/.38 Special cylinder.

 

[lysanderxiii]

"Sometimes" must be the key word there, lysanderxiii - because Ruger has built thousands upon thousands of those Ruger Blackhawks that come with both a 9mm cylinder and a .357 Magnum/.38 Special cylinder.

0.335 to 0.357" (0.002") is not enough to cause a serious problem, 0.355" to 0.364" (0.009") will cause over-pressure one way and poor accuracy the other.

Before 147 gr 9mm bullets were available, we used to hand load .357 158 gr JHP in Parabellum cases for defensive loads.

 

[CDW4ME]

Options.
380 = "better than nothing" and useful for when one is limited by work attire, which is not the same as limited by choice (unwilling to carry bigger).
9mm = "as good as 40/45 with modern 9mm ammo" because 40 & 45 didn't get modern enhancement (Kidding 9mm is an acceptable minimum)
357 Sig = 9mm magnum but everybody decided that 9mm was "good enough" and KE didn't matter so heck with 357 Sig. (Bottleneck with 500+# KE)

I did not address 32 acp because I stuck with calibers suitable for SD.

 

[Steve S.]

The OP makes a point (good point in my opinion) in that firearms all do about the same thing. How many different variations of the same thing (like hair styles) are simply that, the same thing. In turn, how many different variations on the same thing does it take to put a man or an animal down. Increased variety leads to increased cost - as was stated before, capitalism and naïveté.

 

[mcb]

The OP makes a point (good point in my opinion) in that firearms all do about the same thing. How many different variations of the same thing (like hair styles) are simply that, the same thing. In turn, how many different variations on the same thing does it take to put a man or an animal down. Increased variety leads to increased cost - as was stated before, capitalism and naïveté.

Many of those cartridges that are balletically similar may have been made to fit a specific platforms. How many cartridges have come about specifically to fit the AR platform, likely dozens:

204 Ruger
224 Valkery
6mm ARC
6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
300 AAC Blackout
300 Ham'r
30 Remington AR
350 Legend
450 Bushmaster
458 SOCOM

etc, and I have just mentioned the more mainstream cartridges developed for the AR platform, there are tons of wildcats with various levels of success iin the market place. Nothing any of those cartridges do could not be replicated with an older cartridge except most of those older cartridges would not fit in an AR-15.

Also I don't think variations drive price up much. Its not like it takes a lot of time or cost to switch most ammunition manufacturing machines from one cartridge to another. Also many of these cartridge are in families reducing the amount of change over required. 243 Win, 260 Rem, 7mm-08, 308 Winchester 338 Federal, 358 Winchester are all based on the parent 308 case with simple a change of neck diameter. Similar families are built around 223 Remington and 30-06, 10mm Auto, and others.

Variety is the spice of life and the result of a healthy capitalistic economy.

 

[lsudave]

Why are there so many different calibers, and so many in oddball sizes, for rifle, and to a lesser degree handguns?

Two main reasons; one is old and one is new.

The OLD:
It wasn't that long ago that the world wasn't interconnected, the way it is now. For example, look at WW2- fairly modern (20th Century). The US, Great Britain, France, Russia, Germany, Italy, Japan, etc... nearly EVERY major country made their own military products domestically. Tanks, airplanes, firearms and so forth. Sure, there would be some importation, but there would be a homegrown product that was preferred, and as such, things were made to different specs (and designed by different folks). The US had 45acp, 30-06, etc. The Russians had 7.62 Tokarev, 7,62x54R. The French had various shades of 7.5mm. The Brits had 455 Webley and 303; the Germans had 9x19 and 8mm Mauser etc. And so forth. Some overlap, but generally you had your own stuff, and needed to resupply with your own stuff.
Different world today, as in NATO everyone has 9x19, .556, 7.62 NATO; and the French can resupply the Brits, who can resupply the Turks, who can resupply us.
But while the militaries have generally synched up, there's still a lot of older, sometimes iconic, and often very popular firearms that are still very functional, and people want to keep those and keep feeding them.

The NEW:
guns don't expire or become obsolete like an iPhone does, so you need reasons to keep buying them. People who liked the AR platform, but wanted 30 cal performance, we got the 300BO. New cartridge. Now, companies are getting better at making 7.62x39 ARs (which I think was the original impetus), so has the 300 BO faded out? No, because now it seems like a better suppressed cartridge, and some other reasons... bottom line is you don't REPLACE it, you ADD it to the mix.

 

[Jim Watson]

There runs the gambit of every .20 caliber , hitting each size stepping up 1/100ths to 1,000ths of an inch at a time

Just because there is a brand name every thou does not mean there is an actual caliber.
Frex, the .218 Bee, .219 Zipper, .220 Swift, .221 Fireball, .222 Remington, .223 Remington, .224 Weatherby, and .225 Winchester ALL shoot .224" diameter bullets. Cartridges and chambers are specific, but the hole down the barrel is the same.
But .22 Remington Jet and .22 Savage High Power don't use .224" bullets, .222" and .227" respectively.

The largest honker I am aware of, as a service rifle cartridge, is the 8 X 63 Swedish, and the recoil with that must have been brutal.

As I recall, that was their heavy machine gun cartridge. The heavy weapons squad had 8x63 rifles, I assume so they could reload off the end of a MG belt if they got short of ammo so as to keep people from distracting the machine gunners. Rifles were '98 Mausers, rebarrelled from 8x57 and fitted with muzzle brakes for the heavy load.

The regular Swedish infantry rifles were 6.5x55 in small ring Mausers, along with 6.5mm BARs and machine guns.