Why is it that every news clip I see, the LEO's are hiding behind trees, cars, walls, etc instead of rushing in the building where Cho was? Is there protocol to follow? Why didn't anyone rush the building? Didn't they have bullet proof vests? Just curious..
Question about VT LEO tactics
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I saw a SWAT Officer who trains Swat team members on CNN about one hour after the shooting had occurred. He stated that when you have an active shooter killing hostages, you need to go in and neutralize the threat immediately. He commented on video of Police taking up defensive positions outside of buildings: BIG MISTAKE. They needed to go in forcefully and aggressively and get the shooter.
SouthpawShootr
Member
Don't rely on that "bulletproof vest." Scum have a knack to hitting officers right in the vulnerable spots. There are a couple of places that are not protected or not protected during a certain range of movement due to mobility concerns. As an example, one local officer that was shot locally impacted just below the vest. She bled out before they could get her to the hospital. Front on hit. Just a little too low. Hit (among other things) the abdominal aorta (a fairly large target). Years ago, a state trooper was killed by somebody who managed to hit him just above the collar of his vest. Don't think they ever caught the guy either. It was a traffic stop.
Now, that said, I'd say the responding agencies looked like they were pretty unprepared for this sort of scenario. I'm not so sure I could fault them there. This particular instance, I don't know if anything short of a large metropolitan agency could be expected to be up for this sort of situation. It's not really a hostage situation, although it could have been treated as such (using tactics filed under "what to do if it goes south").
As far as what you're saying about the officers taking up defensive positions, I would chaulk that up to a leadership problem. Very likely the individual LEOs knew what needed to be done, but the ranking officer(s) on the scene just wasn't up to making the decision. Hence, alot of waiting and making sure they weren't making themselves targets.
Now, that said, I'd say the responding agencies looked like they were pretty unprepared for this sort of scenario. I'm not so sure I could fault them there. This particular instance, I don't know if anything short of a large metropolitan agency could be expected to be up for this sort of situation. It's not really a hostage situation, although it could have been treated as such (using tactics filed under "what to do if it goes south").
As far as what you're saying about the officers taking up defensive positions, I would chaulk that up to a leadership problem. Very likely the individual LEOs knew what needed to be done, but the ranking officer(s) on the scene just wasn't up to making the decision. Hence, alot of waiting and making sure they weren't making themselves targets.
Titan6
member
I hate to say it but most of the LEOs that were waiting on the SWAT to show did not look in any kind of shape to charge a building.
Keep in mind that campus police while they are a real police force at VT are used to dealing with drunken frat boys and the occasional pervert not crazed gunmen shooting everyone they see.
Keep in mind that campus police while they are a real police force at VT are used to dealing with drunken frat boys and the occasional pervert not crazed gunmen shooting everyone they see.
Steve in PA
Member
Funny how many "tactical experts" come out of the woodwork to start threads and comments about this incident.
First, you don't send every swinging @@@@ with a gun running into a building. A certain number will go in and the rest will set up a perimiter. Even this supposed "SWAT expert" should know that.
What building are you going to go in? How are you going to search? Does everyone have communication with everyone else? Is there one gunman or a dozen? Yada, yada.....yada.
What do you want them to do, send 100 guys into a buidling searching for a gunman and having to deal with more officers pouring in all the time??
The first group of responders should have formed a team, 4-5 officers and gone in. don't know if that happened or not. But the media being held at a distance showed some officers holding a perimitter and everyone is raising a stink about it.
First, you don't send every swinging @@@@ with a gun running into a building. A certain number will go in and the rest will set up a perimiter. Even this supposed "SWAT expert" should know that.
What building are you going to go in? How are you going to search? Does everyone have communication with everyone else? Is there one gunman or a dozen? Yada, yada.....yada.
What do you want them to do, send 100 guys into a buidling searching for a gunman and having to deal with more officers pouring in all the time??
The first group of responders should have formed a team, 4-5 officers and gone in. don't know if that happened or not. But the media being held at a distance showed some officers holding a perimitter and everyone is raising a stink about it.
Blackfork
Member
Police up to speed.
A nearly impossible job in an impossible situation. They aren't supermen, just guys pulled off routine stuff and inserted into chaos trying to do the best they can, follow orders, communicate, establish command and control, get a plan and execute it, et, et. Two minutes before they were writing tickets.
The lesson is, if YOU are caught in a situation like this, you need to be thinking, planning and acting. Until help actually shows up, you are on your own.
Barricading the door was a good reaction. Going out the window was a good reaction. 911 was a good reaction. Someone may have tried to tackle the shooter and gotten killed without witnesses. Nobody will know.
These were extraordinary circumstances for all involved. Everyone tried to do their job and help.
A nearly impossible job in an impossible situation. They aren't supermen, just guys pulled off routine stuff and inserted into chaos trying to do the best they can, follow orders, communicate, establish command and control, get a plan and execute it, et, et. Two minutes before they were writing tickets.
The lesson is, if YOU are caught in a situation like this, you need to be thinking, planning and acting. Until help actually shows up, you are on your own.
Barricading the door was a good reaction. Going out the window was a good reaction. 911 was a good reaction. Someone may have tried to tackle the shooter and gotten killed without witnesses. Nobody will know.
These were extraordinary circumstances for all involved. Everyone tried to do their job and help.
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I am not a 'tactical expert' BUT...... the way you are describing what could have went on, there is a SERIOUS problem with leadership and action of the LEO's. I would go in the building where the rapid gunfire is being heard. I'm pretty sure the LEO's could radio each other to see if anyone from the force has gone in or not. I'm sorry, but standing behind a tree with your sidearm is NOT going to help the people inside. It just upsets me to see all these LEO's and SWAT members running around with firepower and not going anywhere with it.
Pilgrim
Member
Until an officer knows the 5 'W's, there is no point in going charging about looking for the bad guy. Why are we here? Who are we looking for? What did he do? Where is he supposed to be? When was our last good information on his location?
The problem becomes much more complex when there are multiple agencies on the scene. The big problem is command, communication, and control. Who is in charge? Where does he want us to go? What does he want us to do? How do we avoid friendly fire incidents?
Like it or not, a campus fits the criteria of urban warfare. Look at it as a problem of finding and neutralizing the sniper. Unlike military troops, you can't force the sniper to hide with automatic weapons fire. You can't neutralize him with direct fire or indirect fire artillery. You have to go find him and kill him.
Forming anti-sniper squads is fine and dandy when you have trained for it and have your own people to work with. Trying to form hunter teams with people from other agencies you don't know adds to the problem of trust and coordination.
It's a difficult problem and it won't be solved by charging in like John Wayne and getting your people killed.
Pilgrim
The problem becomes much more complex when there are multiple agencies on the scene. The big problem is command, communication, and control. Who is in charge? Where does he want us to go? What does he want us to do? How do we avoid friendly fire incidents?
Like it or not, a campus fits the criteria of urban warfare. Look at it as a problem of finding and neutralizing the sniper. Unlike military troops, you can't force the sniper to hide with automatic weapons fire. You can't neutralize him with direct fire or indirect fire artillery. You have to go find him and kill him.
Forming anti-sniper squads is fine and dandy when you have trained for it and have your own people to work with. Trying to form hunter teams with people from other agencies you don't know adds to the problem of trust and coordination.
It's a difficult problem and it won't be solved by charging in like John Wayne and getting your people killed.
Pilgrim
AlaskaErik
Member
The one where the shooting is going on.
Jim Watson
Member
I bet if some of the cops had kids attending there, there would have been a "dynamic entry."
hotpig
Member
You guys that think the cops were outside eating doughnuts and telling dirty jokes while Cho was shooting people lack common sense. Its a good thing you guys were not there our the body count would have been higher.
These guys are family men and women. Standing around waiting to go was probably the hardest thing that they have ever done in their lives. The frustration that you guys feel looking at the perimeter people was nothing compared to what they had to feel.
You can bet some of those cops had friends or family at that school. Saying that they did nothing and waited till it was over because they were fat and lazy is just plain stupid.
This rates right in the top ten stupidest things that I have read on this forum. Actually it rates right next to the guys on this forum who say that people with mental defects should be allowed to have guns.:banghead:
These guys are family men and women. Standing around waiting to go was probably the hardest thing that they have ever done in their lives. The frustration that you guys feel looking at the perimeter people was nothing compared to what they had to feel.
You can bet some of those cops had friends or family at that school. Saying that they did nothing and waited till it was over because they were fat and lazy is just plain stupid.
This rates right in the top ten stupidest things that I have read on this forum. Actually it rates right next to the guys on this forum who say that people with mental defects should be allowed to have guns.:banghead:
Hypnogator
Member
+1 Hotpig!
I am an expert on deadly force tactics, and I teach active shooter response. You quickly assemble a hunter-killer team, which enters the building. Extra officers are positioned on the perimeter as they arrive, to secure anyone leaving the building. You do not send in multiple teams (unless you have sufficient manpower upon arrival to dispatch a team to each floor). To send in additional teams, even with good commo, is to risk goodguy-goodguy shootouts.
This has to rank right up there with the thread that suggested that after the initial shooting, the campus should have been closed down and the FBI, State Police, and every LEO on the Eastern Seaboard should have immediately been dispatched to the scene.
I am an expert on deadly force tactics, and I teach active shooter response. You quickly assemble a hunter-killer team, which enters the building. Extra officers are positioned on the perimeter as they arrive, to secure anyone leaving the building. You do not send in multiple teams (unless you have sufficient manpower upon arrival to dispatch a team to each floor). To send in additional teams, even with good commo, is to risk goodguy-goodguy shootouts.
This has to rank right up there with the thread that suggested that after the initial shooting, the campus should have been closed down and the FBI, State Police, and every LEO on the Eastern Seaboard should have immediately been dispatched to the scene.
oregonshooter
Member
Does anyone know for sure if:
The shooting was going on while more than 2 Cops were outside, and if they DID do an active shooter scenario?
Seems nobody can answer this one yet?
The shooting was going on while more than 2 Cops were outside, and if they DID do an active shooter scenario?
Seems nobody can answer this one yet?
RNB65
Member
In due time, once the investigations are completed, we will know the detailed timeline of exactly what happened.
In the meantime, I'll express my personal opinion that no one just sat around twiddling their thumbs while Cho was shooting up Norris Hall. The lessons of Columbine have not been lost. I strongly believe that a small tactical team entered Norris Hall as soon as they arrived at the door closest to the sound of shooting and headed to the second floor as fast as they could move. At the same time, the bulk of the LEO's on scene moved to establish a secure perimeter around the building in case the shooter (or shooters) came charging out with guns a-blazing.
In the meantime, I'll express my personal opinion that no one just sat around twiddling their thumbs while Cho was shooting up Norris Hall. The lessons of Columbine have not been lost. I strongly believe that a small tactical team entered Norris Hall as soon as they arrived at the door closest to the sound of shooting and headed to the second floor as fast as they could move. At the same time, the bulk of the LEO's on scene moved to establish a secure perimeter around the building in case the shooter (or shooters) came charging out with guns a-blazing.
ArchAngelCD
Member.
The Police stayed outside because it was too dangerous to go inside until the shooting stopped!!! Unacceptable IMO. They have the guns, vests, helmets, and everything else those poor kids didn't have. The State of Virginia prohibited them from protecting themselves and left them inside a building to die like sheep while the ones who are supposed to serve and protect hid behind cover. This is why the rights of 2nd Amendment shouldn't have been stripped from those kids and their teachers.
I suppose some of you will only be happy if they put embedded reporters with the hunter teams so that you can see what really went down.
What Hypnogator posted is current active shooter doctrine. It would be insanity for everyone to rush into the building. There would be blue on blue gunfights all over the place.
When one of you receives a copy of the AAR from the PD so we know what happened, PM me and I'll reopen this thread. In the meantime, it's senseless to speculate about what the police response was based on the news photos.
Jeff
What Hypnogator posted is current active shooter doctrine. It would be insanity for everyone to rush into the building. There would be blue on blue gunfights all over the place.
When one of you receives a copy of the AAR from the PD so we know what happened, PM me and I'll reopen this thread. In the meantime, it's senseless to speculate about what the police response was based on the news photos.
Jeff
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