Question for LEOs and retired LEOs:

[BootBuckle]

I'm curious--when illegally owned and/or carried firearms are recovered from criminals, in what condition are they usually found?

My question was formulated based on the myriad of threads I've seen about the reliability and familiarity requirements that members of this forum impose on their personal protection firearms. Those of us who will likely never use our EDCs in a defensive manor are typically obsessed (for lack of a better term) with the reliability of our guns, and we are constantly shooting, cleaning, lubricating, etc.

Meanwhile, it is my assumption that the civilians (i.e. drug dealers) who generally use their illegally obtained or possessed firearms in true life and death situations on a relatively frequent basis lack the work ethic and attention to detail required to provide proper maintenance and care to their firearms to ensure utmost reliability. My assumption is derived from my observation of how the aforementioned demographic maintains their dwellings, vehicles, city blocks, etc. Are my assumptions consistent with what you’ve seen, or am I completely out to lunch?

 

[Rock185]

It has been my experience that low lifes do not spend time with firearms maintenance. Your assumptions are consistent with what I have seen.....

 

[Speedo66]

A lot of times the guns used in crimes are borrowed or rented, so it's hard to say the perpetrators themselves don't clean them.

I've seen many guns in evidence, can't say they were in any worse shape than those of some of my fellow officers.

Some of them never cleaned their guns except just before they went to qualify, which meant they went an entire year dirty from the last time they qualified.

 

[lemaymiami]

In my early years as a cop (started end of 1973) the vast majority of guns that I came into contact with were junk iron in every sense of the word (cheap "Saturday night" handguns, as likely to explode as fire properly). If you ever came into contact with a decent quality gun it was either stolen or being used by an otherwise law abiding type that was breaking bad (usually domestic related crimes - murder suicides many times).

That began to change with the proliferation of info on weapons in the form of high quality gun magazines that any kid could access... The whole process accelerated with the advent of the internet... And, of course, as the info increased everyone we came into contact with had better quality weapons -- lucky us...

Whether any of the guys with guns did or didn't maintain them properly or trained with them was rarely an issue at close quarters facing a 15 year old with a gun(and if that doesn't scare you it should....).

I used to advise my officers to make a point of periodically reviewing current gun magazines as well as publications like Soldier of Fortune (this was more than thirty years ago, remember) and to make sure to read the ads at the back to see just what our local kids were learning about....

I'm almost twenty years out of police work now and haven't stayed current about street life. Some of our experiences years ago were peculiar to south Florida where there really were young folks, "refugees", that came to us already combat veterans from El Salvador and other garden spots - plus the all the stuff from the Caribbean. Many times it was hard to tell the players even with a score card.

 

[RustyShackelford]

Donnie Broscoe....

John Pistone, the FBI special agent who spent years undercover dealing with organized crime & drug dealers wrote about this topic in his non fiction book.
Pistone, who's story became the film; Donnie Broscoe with actor Johnny Depp, www.IMDb.com , wrote that most guns used by crooks & gangs were old, worn out, broken or never cleaned/oiled.
He also said few gang members or mob guys would ever bother to clean a handgun or even check it/test fire it.
Many firearms were either stolen or kept hidden so many weapons had dirt/crud/grease/etc.
Pistone said almost no crooks used holsters or gun cases either.
Another LE officer I heard of stated in his entire career in patrol/investigations(about 25 years) he only saw 2 suspects with guns that had holsters. That's how rare it is.
Many times, crooks or street gangs buy a gun, then field strip it & hide the parts in different places. That way, if they are searched by law enforcement or if asked they can deny having it. Some drug dealers/gang members in my metro area use local street people/homeless to cache guns & drugs too.

RS

 

[km101]

In my experience firearms maintenance, whether it was a handgun or a shotgun, was the last thing on the mind of the crooks I encountered. Most of the guns carried lots of external wear and/or corrosion. Most of the guns that I encountered were junk "Saturday night specials" and were not what I would consider reliable.

There were the occasional good quality firearms that were probably stolen recently. Most of the crooks didn't keep good quality firearms because they could be sold for drug money and that tended to be of more value to them than a good gun.

 

[scaatylobo]

Taken a 'few' off the streets

I was LEO for 26 years.

Its a smaller city but LARGE transient population [ millions ].

I have personally taken more than a few guns from perp's AND from domestic violence arrests.

In the cases of the perp's,handguns and shotguns were in TERRIBLE condition.

Loaded with few rounds,or the wrong caliber.

Most would and did fire [ we had to T&E them for a trial ].

But we always wore protective gear to fire them,I shot many more that other officer took as evidence when I was Range officer = they too were a mess.

 

[ClickClickD'oh]

Pistone said almost no crooks used holsters or gun cases either.

That is one of the truly consistent things I encountered. It's almost like the unlawful carry or use of a firearm directly negates carrying that firearm in a manner that won't accrue carpet lint, Cheetos, some of that 40 they spilled, a few random paper clips that were in the bottom of the glove box it was shoved in, some seeds & stems from rolling that blunt they thought would be a good idea to smoke rolling down the highway, or every officers favorite... crotch sweat.

Loaded with few rounds,or the wrong caliber.

A couple hollow points, a couple FMJ, throw in a lead round nose for fun...

 

[Ranger Roberts]

Generally speaking I have found that guns taken into evidence in domestic situations or from a household that has someone that may be involuntarily/voluntarily committed are in decent shape. I think the operative word in that sentence is "household", they aren't on the street. Don't get me wrong, I have seen some real beaters as well, but for the most part they are in decent shape. I have also come across plenty of guns in DUI stops/regular traffic stops that were in good shape because they were someone's everyday carry piece. Most times these aren't bad people, just someone who made a bad decision or is in a "bad place" mentally at the time.

Most of the guns that I have taken off suspects in other situations (they run the gamut from burglaries, possession of stolen goods, gang related violence to drug related offenses) are usually rough to say the least. These are the people that I wouldn't really classify as a good person in a bad situation, they are generally life long criminals. The guns that we come across that are in really good shape are generally stolen. Most criminals aren't shelling out $2k for a STI 1911 or $2k for a Benelli Ethos.

The funny thing with being in law enforcement, you never know what you are going to run into. I've learned to never say never. If I tell you anything is definite, I will be proven wrong later today when I begin my patrol!

 

[Captcurt]

Not LEO but I have seen some crap.

I attended an auction at the local PD. Out of 80-90 firearms there was possibly a dozen that were worth bidding on. These were all guns confiscated over a period of a year or so. Most were junk that I would not shoot if you paid me.

 

[bikerdoc]

I saw junk and a few good ones. All were dirty. Funny they never admitted if was theirs. It was always a friends or "I didnt know it was there".
They always said I didnt do it.

So what part of being in a stolen car, without a licence, on probation,
with a gun, and a bindle of meth and six credit cards with different names didnt you do?

Glad I am retired

 

[RustyShackelford]

Post 11.....

I worked at a low end hotel/extended stay place for about 12mo.
I constantly dealt with people who claimed to have no ID, didn't know their soc security #s, used fake names, or my favorite; used a DOC or prison ID card as their main ID card.

I once had a woman say; "hey, what name are you going to use today" to her "companion" as they checked in(they were later turned away).
It gets real old after a bit. :banghead:

 

[Keb]

My 6 of 9 arms recovered spent 17 and 26 months in the woods under a bush. Needless to say, they needed some restoration. Most came out OK.

 

[LeonCarr]

In every condition from NIB to beat to heck .

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[lemaymiami]

For the guy who attended a police gun auction.... That would have never occurred where I was. Weapons were returned to lawful owners (if they could be determined).... otherwise confiscated weapons were either converted to Department use (rarely) or simply destroyed. I actually had that job one year and destroyed two full sized garbage cans filled with weapons of every sort. Those two cans were an accumulation of between five and ten years....

 

[postalnut25]

My PD has a wall display of guns that have been confiscated. The barrels were all welded prior to display. Most of the guns are garbage, but there are three that pain me: A nice older Colt Police Positive, a S&W model 15, and a S&W 3rd gen, unsure of model. Don't know how or why they were confiscated, but I hated seeing them turned into dust collecting wall art.

 

[jakk280rem]

Not a recent example but I have read multiple sources cite the 1920's era gangsters and other criminals were quite proficient with their weapons. Going so far as to drive into the wilderness to practice, buying parts and accessories by mail and having their personal and stolen weapons customized and repaired by gunsmiths.

 

[Old Guy]

Not LEO. Saw a 2" Snubby in the biggest Self Defense case in Canadian History, I was the expert witness for the accused's Lawyer.

An old 6 shot S&W, had a mixture of rounds, lots of lint!

The person who was carrying it, in his jacket pocket, a Jamaican Posse gang leader, nick named "Toughie" he got shot dead, trying to get the revolver out of his pocket (again no holster!) the hammer caused the gun to stay in the pocket, jammed. But I had no doubt it would have fired.

The Clerk of the Court handed me the revolver, and the live rounds! I loaded the cylinder, did not close it, but they all slid in and out.

The accused was told you are free to go, right out of the accused box! The Jail Officers wanted to take him back to the Jail! The Judge said again, You are free to go! March 1998. Toronto Canada.

 

[BootBuckle]

I tried to look up the case to see details, but couldn't find it. Can you recall the case name?

 

[Outlaw Man]

My friend's wife works as a ballistics examiner for a crime lab here. Her experience supports that of others in this thread. There were a few guns similar to what we would own, even fewer high end or rare pieces in excellent condition (probably mostly stolen), and the vast majority were trashed but operational.

 

[Captcurt]

Lemaymiami,

I didn't mention that the auction was for licensed dealers and the guns were sold by lots. You had to buy 10-25 guns per lot. You might get 3-5 that were decent. Sorry, but I won't handle junk.

 

[Speedo66]

One gun in particular I remember was a high grade Model 21 Winchester taken in a burglary. The perp cut the stock and shortened the barrels, and was doing street holdups netting him $20-30. He never realized he had a shotgun originally worth thousands.

The owner came in and almost cried when he saw his gun.

Also had some young teens found a pistol their grandfather had brought up from the south many years earlier, and were doing target shooting with it in Central Park up in Harlem. It was an old S&W breaktop .44 in excellent condition.

When I first came on the job in 1969, kids were still making zip guns. Anything from door cross bolts powered by rubber bands and mounted to a block of wood, to .22 starter pistols with the barrel block bored out and lined with pieces of car antennas.

Later, the Chinese youth gangs in NY's Chinatown started the trend of using top quality name brand revolvers.

By the time I retired in 2009, nobody used zip guns anymore, hadn't seen one in over 30 years. Lots of cheap junk, but also lots of quality pieces.

 

[LtBlue425]

I'd say about 90% of all the weapons in evidence were budget priced guns to junk. Condition was usually poor, certainly not objects of care. Some were modified in all kinds of ways to enhance the gangsta image.

The comments about mixed ammo or wrong ammo are spot on. Not every criminal is that sloppy but enough of them are to make it interesting. One revolver with a different load in every cylinder makes working a shooting scene more challenging.

Out of the hundreds of guns I saw come into the lab only a dozen or so would even get my attention, much less want to own. Before I was in that position I didn't realize there were so many Bryco/Jennings, Hi Points and Ravens out there. One Bryco had a burst barrel that opened the slide but no idea what the story was.

The worst sad story was a Browning Superposed in near mint condition. Stolen in a burglary and used in a robbery the next night, minus most of its stock and barrels. The owner wanted some personal time with the 19 yr old perp which we would have allowed if we could.

 

[ljnowell]

I do not support any new gun laws period as I don't believe they work. However, after reading this thread it does help me to understand why some anti-gun politicians have tried in the past to ban "Saturday Night Specials."

I don't believe that ban would work. They would still get them or they would just get better guns and be more effective. Until reading this experience from LEOs I didn't realize how many recovered guns were cheap clunkers.

 

[Captcurt]

It is not like you see on TV. Most shows have the bad guys with full automatic weapons or some monster killer like an Automag or Desert Eagle. I have only seen one show that had Hi-points and Rhinos.

Back in the early 80's there was a militia group called CSA that had a compound in our area. When ATF and the FBI raided it, there was some of their equipment impounded by the county PD for a couple of years and then sold at auction. My boss bought a dumptruck and found 2 MAC-10's with suppressors, loaded magazines and ammo. They were sealed in ammo cans and buried under sand in the bed of the truck. BTW, the serial numbers were drilled off of both guns. One of the deputies told me that they were still at the sheriff's office.